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Martial/Caster balance and the Grease spell
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8326013" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Gonna have to stop you right there. That's not the class. That's a class <em>that sunk two feats into something</em>. No longer apples-to-apples when comparing "what can spells do" with "what can Fighters do," unless we start looking at spellcasters who have <em>also</em> spent two feats to enhance their casting abilities.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, whatever else I may think about this thread, <em>this</em> is hilarious and totally worth the price of admission.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's....still not super great for a 5th level spell, seeing as how you only get two or three of those a day (up to five, if you're a Wizard or Land Druid, though <em>realistically</em> no more than three, since you only get that third 5th-level slot at level 18, and only get the ability to regain two 5th-level slots at class level 19). Spending a third to a half of your most powerful "repeatable" spells for the day to merely <em>reroll</em>--not succeed, just reroll--a couple saves? Not a great tradeoff, unless you're really afraid of what might happen if you fail any saves at all.</p><p></p><p>(Also, again, my experience with 5e vastly differs from others'. As a player, I have found saves to be extremely binary--either they're trivial, or nearly unpassable. Often the latter. It's part of what makes combat, especially in the earliest levels, incredibly frustrating and demoralizing. I'm reminded of the "ghoul surprise" boondoggle back during the playtest.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>I would, personally, say that that means you're just seeing how niche the spell's effect is. As I very clearly said in a different part of the post you quoted, <em>grease</em> is not a good spell overall. But it's much better than shoving. Much as, for example, <em>sleep</em> is a LOVELY spell...at 1st level, and rapidly declines into "not worth the ink it's written with" territory by 5th level or so.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It looks like you're correct. I had read the PHB rules--"If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces <strong>one</strong> of them," emphasis mine--as meaning you could use exactly one attack to shove, no matter how many attacks you might have. Assuming you allow Crawford tweets as official commentary on the rules, he has clarified that it is <em>any number</em> of attacks. But you still have to make multiple attempts at it--and you get <em>at best</em> four chances (for an extremely high-level fighter!) <em>if</em> you have four things adjacent to you. That's definitely not going to be any <em>easier</em> than getting four things in a 10-foot square!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Then my argument is that you are, rather plainly, making apples-to-<em>orangutans</em> comparisons, when you could be doing apples-to-pears instead.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You said "on hits." This is not "on hits." This is "if you hit with every attack." Of course things look far rosier for the martials if every attack is a guaranteed hit!</p><p></p><p></p><p>My math has, repeatedly, shown otherwise, so I'm curious how you reach this point.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I literally already did that, at least for Second Wind/"<em>burst of vitality</em>," and found it pretty clearly wanting in this "holy balls this is so overpowered it should never have been printed" territory.</p><p></p><p>Again: put your math where your mouth is. <em>Show</em> me these writeups that are so blatantly overpowered that no one in their right mind would have printed them. I've already tried my hand at it, and found it <em>seriously</em> wanting. Action Surge is the only one that might--<em>might</em>--fall into that range. You described <em>the entire Fighter class</em> as being built out of this stuff. I'm honestly kind of excited to see you make these writeups, because I would love to be proven wrong, and am very ready to give you the benefit of the doubt on this. I would LOVE to feel like Fighters are powerful badasses that don't get regularly outclassed by magic. That's what I <em>want</em>, and you are proposing to <em>give it to me</em>. Why would that upset me?</p><p></p><p>Again though, note that I do not accept magic items or feats as part of this equation. It needs to be the Fighter, its class features, and its non-magical equipment. Just as the Wizard (or Cleric or whatever) is only getting its class features and non-magical equipment. Totally cool with advancing stats with ASIs, totally cool with leveraging subclass features (excluding EK, since that turns the Fighter into a caster and the whole point is making <em>non-casters</em> stack up). But no feats, no buffs cast by an ally, no magic items, etc. Just the Fighter, in all her glory.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8326013, member: 6790260"] Gonna have to stop you right there. That's not the class. That's a class [I]that sunk two feats into something[/I]. No longer apples-to-apples when comparing "what can spells do" with "what can Fighters do," unless we start looking at spellcasters who have [I]also[/I] spent two feats to enhance their casting abilities. Okay, whatever else I may think about this thread, [I]this[/I] is hilarious and totally worth the price of admission. That's....still not super great for a 5th level spell, seeing as how you only get two or three of those a day (up to five, if you're a Wizard or Land Druid, though [I]realistically[/I] no more than three, since you only get that third 5th-level slot at level 18, and only get the ability to regain two 5th-level slots at class level 19). Spending a third to a half of your most powerful "repeatable" spells for the day to merely [I]reroll[/I]--not succeed, just reroll--a couple saves? Not a great tradeoff, unless you're really afraid of what might happen if you fail any saves at all. (Also, again, my experience with 5e vastly differs from others'. As a player, I have found saves to be extremely binary--either they're trivial, or nearly unpassable. Often the latter. It's part of what makes combat, especially in the earliest levels, incredibly frustrating and demoralizing. I'm reminded of the "ghoul surprise" boondoggle back during the playtest.) I would, personally, say that that means you're just seeing how niche the spell's effect is. As I very clearly said in a different part of the post you quoted, [I]grease[/I] is not a good spell overall. But it's much better than shoving. Much as, for example, [I]sleep[/I] is a LOVELY spell...at 1st level, and rapidly declines into "not worth the ink it's written with" territory by 5th level or so. It looks like you're correct. I had read the PHB rules--"If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces [B]one[/B] of them," emphasis mine--as meaning you could use exactly one attack to shove, no matter how many attacks you might have. Assuming you allow Crawford tweets as official commentary on the rules, he has clarified that it is [I]any number[/I] of attacks. But you still have to make multiple attempts at it--and you get [I]at best[/I] four chances (for an extremely high-level fighter!) [I]if[/I] you have four things adjacent to you. That's definitely not going to be any [I]easier[/I] than getting four things in a 10-foot square! Then my argument is that you are, rather plainly, making apples-to-[I]orangutans[/I] comparisons, when you could be doing apples-to-pears instead. You said "on hits." This is not "on hits." This is "if you hit with every attack." Of course things look far rosier for the martials if every attack is a guaranteed hit! My math has, repeatedly, shown otherwise, so I'm curious how you reach this point. I literally already did that, at least for Second Wind/"[I]burst of vitality[/I]," and found it pretty clearly wanting in this "holy balls this is so overpowered it should never have been printed" territory. Again: put your math where your mouth is. [I]Show[/I] me these writeups that are so blatantly overpowered that no one in their right mind would have printed them. I've already tried my hand at it, and found it [I]seriously[/I] wanting. Action Surge is the only one that might--[I]might[/I]--fall into that range. You described [I]the entire Fighter class[/I] as being built out of this stuff. I'm honestly kind of excited to see you make these writeups, because I would love to be proven wrong, and am very ready to give you the benefit of the doubt on this. I would LOVE to feel like Fighters are powerful badasses that don't get regularly outclassed by magic. That's what I [I]want[/I], and you are proposing to [I]give it to me[/I]. Why would that upset me? Again though, note that I do not accept magic items or feats as part of this equation. It needs to be the Fighter, its class features, and its non-magical equipment. Just as the Wizard (or Cleric or whatever) is only getting its class features and non-magical equipment. Totally cool with advancing stats with ASIs, totally cool with leveraging subclass features (excluding EK, since that turns the Fighter into a caster and the whole point is making [I]non-casters[/I] stack up). But no feats, no buffs cast by an ally, no magic items, etc. Just the Fighter, in all her glory. [/QUOTE]
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