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Martial/Caster balance and the Grease spell
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8326041" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Yeah, both of those options--depending on the charity of your fellow players, and "put reasonable damage into [your] ranged attacks or have the ability to fly via magic items--are unacceptable solutions to me.</p><p></p><p>Depending on the charity of the other players is <em>bad</em>.* That's exactly what led to the "every man for himself" tactics of 3e, because yes, you COULD buff/aid/support your friend who could then <em>potentially</em> do things....or you could just try to do things yourself. It's why in-combat healing is almost always trash, unless you can do it <em>while</em> you do other things (hence why <em>healing word</em>, despite being a piddly 1d4+casting mod, is often the favored choice over <em>cure wounds</em>--because you can use the former in combat).</p><p></p><p>And forcing the Fighter to either continue to divide up resources amongst more and more separate focuses while allowing spellcasters to remain hyperfocused, OR to spend <em>even more</em> of their resources just to keep up while the casters can sit on their piles of gold and do whatever-the-heck-they-like because they don't need <em>equipment</em> to do well, is just...bad.</p><p></p><p>*Note that there is a VAST difference between "depending on the charity of other players" and "teamwork." Teamwork means each person is contributing their best <em>and thus</em> performing better than they could have individually. Depending on the charity of other players means someone is <em>intentionally under-performing</em> so that you can be <em>permitted</em> to perform at all. The former is force-multiplying. The latter is asking another player to give up their contributions so that you can be allowed to contribute. The former is good, productive game design. The latter is <em>hot garbage</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p><em>In the moment you cast it,</em> sure. But what does <em>grease</em> do that shove doesn't? <em>It lasts 10 rounds</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Grease lasts 10 rounds for 1 action. Can a Fighter attempt to prone any enemy that walks by them <em>without an action</em> for 9 rounds after shoving once?</p><p></p><p></p><p>My experience and math numbers say otherwise. Especially since you have multiple saves you can potentially target. What choices does a Fighter have besides shoving (which can be opposed by either Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics)) or hitting AC?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, I would insist (why wouldn't I?), and yes, I would call nearly 2 average damage per hit not "almost identical," seeing as how that's only just shy of the difference between a dagger (1d4, 2.5 damage per hit) and a longsword/rapier (1d8, 4.5 damage per hit). Especially since the only way you're getting that 11.5 is with Dueling style (best one-handed weapon damage is 1d8 = 4.5 average, so with +5 modifier that's 9.5, Duelling bumps it up to 11.5.) Nearly 2 average damage is...very nearly what makes Duelling worthwhile!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is why I made <em>burst of vitality</em> a reaction spell. You can cast a reaction spell in the same turn as you cast other spells. The only limit on spellcasting in terms of actions is that you cannot cast a regular spell in the same round that you cast a bonus-action spell. You can totally cast a reaction spell and a regular spell in the same round--so you could cast <em>burst of vitality</em> and <em>scorching ray</em>, presuming the trigger condition for <em>burst of vitality</em> were met. (Normally--that is, for a spell of its overall concept--I'd expect the trigger to be that you <em>take</em> damage, but if you want to be maximally generous, the trigger could be "having less than your maximum HP," so it could be used at almost any time.)</p><p></p><p>And, again, this "4d6+10" is only if you actually do hit with both of your attacks. The spellcaster throwing <em>scorching ray</em> is getting three attacks, at range, that each do 2d6 on a hit. If we assume the same target, and a reasonable chance to hit (65% is pretty normal), that's 2*.65*(13.33) = 17.329 average damage for the Fighter, vs. 3*.65*7 = 13.65, a difference of about three points of damage--meaningful, but not blowing things out of the water holy-crapballs-awesome. (And, notably, if this were a sword-and-board Fighter, their damage would be only about 1.3 points higher on average. Further, note that the spellcaster benefits more from crits, both because they make more attack rolls, and because they have no static damage that would fail to be enhanced by the crit. If you then consider a caster focused on damage-dealing, such as an Evoker or Dragon Sorcerer, the difference disappears, though I admit that some of these features take time to come online--10th level for Evoker, 6th level for Sorcerer.)</p><p></p><p>So...yeah. I don't see how the Fighter is insanely powerful, if the spellcaster is actually beholden to the same limits the Fighter is, e.g., can only action surge once a day (twice a day at very high level), can only Second Wind/<em>burst of vitality</em> once per short rest, etc. I don't see this "wow, now that you've presented this as a spell, it's so overweeningly powerful that I cannot in good conscience say that the Fighter doesn't have caster-comparable tools to work with."</p><p></p><p></p><p>Because...I mean, I skipped some of the thread, so perhaps I missed it. But I didn't see any writeups for Indomitable, Second Wind (had to write that one myself, so I'd prefer to see your version), Extra Attack, Fighting Styles (though they would be rather odd spells to say the least), or various maneuvers, since Champion brings nothing exciting and Banneret is...probably not worth the effort. (This is sort of my point. You only <em>have</em> four things to write up: Second Wind, Fighting Style, Action Surge, and Indomitable, unless you dig into the subclasses. I already covered one of those things--and found it wanting, making very clear my reasoning and the mathematical comparisons behind it.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8326041, member: 6790260"] Yeah, both of those options--depending on the charity of your fellow players, and "put reasonable damage into [your] ranged attacks or have the ability to fly via magic items--are unacceptable solutions to me. Depending on the charity of the other players is [I]bad[/I].* That's exactly what led to the "every man for himself" tactics of 3e, because yes, you COULD buff/aid/support your friend who could then [I]potentially[/I] do things....or you could just try to do things yourself. It's why in-combat healing is almost always trash, unless you can do it [I]while[/I] you do other things (hence why [I]healing word[/I], despite being a piddly 1d4+casting mod, is often the favored choice over [I]cure wounds[/I]--because you can use the former in combat). And forcing the Fighter to either continue to divide up resources amongst more and more separate focuses while allowing spellcasters to remain hyperfocused, OR to spend [I]even more[/I] of their resources just to keep up while the casters can sit on their piles of gold and do whatever-the-heck-they-like because they don't need [I]equipment[/I] to do well, is just...bad. *Note that there is a VAST difference between "depending on the charity of other players" and "teamwork." Teamwork means each person is contributing their best [I]and thus[/I] performing better than they could have individually. Depending on the charity of other players means someone is [I]intentionally under-performing[/I] so that you can be [I]permitted[/I] to perform at all. The former is force-multiplying. The latter is asking another player to give up their contributions so that you can be allowed to contribute. The former is good, productive game design. The latter is [I]hot garbage[/I]. [I]In the moment you cast it,[/I] sure. But what does [I]grease[/I] do that shove doesn't? [I]It lasts 10 rounds[/I]. Grease lasts 10 rounds for 1 action. Can a Fighter attempt to prone any enemy that walks by them [I]without an action[/I] for 9 rounds after shoving once? My experience and math numbers say otherwise. Especially since you have multiple saves you can potentially target. What choices does a Fighter have besides shoving (which can be opposed by either Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics)) or hitting AC? Yes, I would insist (why wouldn't I?), and yes, I would call nearly 2 average damage per hit not "almost identical," seeing as how that's only just shy of the difference between a dagger (1d4, 2.5 damage per hit) and a longsword/rapier (1d8, 4.5 damage per hit). Especially since the only way you're getting that 11.5 is with Dueling style (best one-handed weapon damage is 1d8 = 4.5 average, so with +5 modifier that's 9.5, Duelling bumps it up to 11.5.) Nearly 2 average damage is...very nearly what makes Duelling worthwhile! Which is why I made [I]burst of vitality[/I] a reaction spell. You can cast a reaction spell in the same turn as you cast other spells. The only limit on spellcasting in terms of actions is that you cannot cast a regular spell in the same round that you cast a bonus-action spell. You can totally cast a reaction spell and a regular spell in the same round--so you could cast [I]burst of vitality[/I] and [I]scorching ray[/I], presuming the trigger condition for [I]burst of vitality[/I] were met. (Normally--that is, for a spell of its overall concept--I'd expect the trigger to be that you [I]take[/I] damage, but if you want to be maximally generous, the trigger could be "having less than your maximum HP," so it could be used at almost any time.) And, again, this "4d6+10" is only if you actually do hit with both of your attacks. The spellcaster throwing [I]scorching ray[/I] is getting three attacks, at range, that each do 2d6 on a hit. If we assume the same target, and a reasonable chance to hit (65% is pretty normal), that's 2*.65*(13.33) = 17.329 average damage for the Fighter, vs. 3*.65*7 = 13.65, a difference of about three points of damage--meaningful, but not blowing things out of the water holy-crapballs-awesome. (And, notably, if this were a sword-and-board Fighter, their damage would be only about 1.3 points higher on average. Further, note that the spellcaster benefits more from crits, both because they make more attack rolls, and because they have no static damage that would fail to be enhanced by the crit. If you then consider a caster focused on damage-dealing, such as an Evoker or Dragon Sorcerer, the difference disappears, though I admit that some of these features take time to come online--10th level for Evoker, 6th level for Sorcerer.) So...yeah. I don't see how the Fighter is insanely powerful, if the spellcaster is actually beholden to the same limits the Fighter is, e.g., can only action surge once a day (twice a day at very high level), can only Second Wind/[I]burst of vitality[/I] once per short rest, etc. I don't see this "wow, now that you've presented this as a spell, it's so overweeningly powerful that I cannot in good conscience say that the Fighter doesn't have caster-comparable tools to work with." Because...I mean, I skipped some of the thread, so perhaps I missed it. But I didn't see any writeups for Indomitable, Second Wind (had to write that one myself, so I'd prefer to see your version), Extra Attack, Fighting Styles (though they would be rather odd spells to say the least), or various maneuvers, since Champion brings nothing exciting and Banneret is...probably not worth the effort. (This is sort of my point. You only [I]have[/I] four things to write up: Second Wind, Fighting Style, Action Surge, and Indomitable, unless you dig into the subclasses. I already covered one of those things--and found it wanting, making very clear my reasoning and the mathematical comparisons behind it.) [/QUOTE]
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