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Martial/Caster balance and the Grease spell
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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 8328521" data-attributes="member: 6795602"><p>So far the biggest issue looks to be multiple large enemies fighting in a spaces just big enough for one of them. That's a huge terrain advantage for the PC's with or without grease. Surely we can agree there.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This always boggles my mind as readied actions go both ways. What if they ATST's had simply moved forward and readied actions to shoot whatever walked out? It always boggles my mind that enemies never deploy even rudimentary tactics to situations and instead chase PC's with all their might as fast as they can.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I've no dog in this race.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If the terrain and enemy behavior all goes in the PC's favor then grease is strong. And I'm not disputing that it can be strong when everything aligns, just that these factors rarely align to make that the case. They shouldn't have even aligned in this instance being discussed.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The whole scenario relies on cramped terrain, a readied spell with a very specific trigger that relies on enemies behaving tactically dumb. The stars essentially have to align for this to work.</p><p></p><p>Then let's look at what was actually bought in this scenario? In the best case scenario (with everything aligning and the lead creature failing his save) you cost the lead enemy and all others 15 ft of movement on the current turn. You cost the lead creature 15ft of movement on the subsequent turn. And then the remaining ATST's walk into the grease make/fail their save, stand up and continue on their way. All you actually bought was a single turn worth of movement. Which would be really good if you could continue kiting away but the terrain prevents that. Preventing the whole enemy team 1 round of movement isn't inconsequential, but given the scenario that appears to be fairly minor advantage to me. You essentially prevented 1 ATST from attacking in melee for 1 round (as the terrain wouldn't have allowed more than 1 in melee at a time anyways).</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's actually worse. If the PC's retreat to that room let the ATST's wait and recharge their guns to shoot whatever walks around the corner. Why take 3 large creatures in a single file line after the PC's when you can just wait them out and/or wait for reinforcements.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not my last post and I really want to address this. No one disputes grease can be good in certain scenarios. It's just that (a) those scenarios are pretty rare, (b) that the advantage actually being gained usually isn't actually as big as while it at first appears (as above what appeared to be keeping 3 ATST's from melee range was actually keeping 1 from melee range for a turn as the PC's had a terrain advantage to funnel them in one at a time even without grease), and (c) action economy wise, there were better rock, paper scissor spells. For example, Slow or Confusion would have been a much better action economy investment on a spell (and it's not like you are short on 3rd and 4th+ level slots).</p><p></p><p></p><p>On this we agree.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not then either, as action economy becomes the more important consideration and there are simply better spells for stalling enemies than grease. IMO, there are only a few actual use cases for grease at high level and primary movement/action depravation isn't one of them. (I expand on the use cases in the next paragraph).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure. Versatility adds power as you are more likely to have the perfect spell for the job. It's just that grease is rarely ever going to be the perfect spell for any job. Which is why attempting to use it as an example has faced such pushback.</p><p></p><p>We can even elaborate on this concept. A spell's power isn't as related to what it says on the tin as much as what it does in the actual cases you use it. At some point it stops mattering how badly a spell sucks in every other situation as you have other spells you are going to use in those situations. The problem for grease in this analysis is that typically other spells accomplish movement/action depravation better than grease and so it's only true use cases are to cause damage via granting advantage to melee characters, using when you are already concentrating on a better spell or really need to conserve higher level spell slots.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 8328521, member: 6795602"] So far the biggest issue looks to be multiple large enemies fighting in a spaces just big enough for one of them. That's a huge terrain advantage for the PC's with or without grease. Surely we can agree there. This always boggles my mind as readied actions go both ways. What if they ATST's had simply moved forward and readied actions to shoot whatever walked out? It always boggles my mind that enemies never deploy even rudimentary tactics to situations and instead chase PC's with all their might as fast as they can. I've no dog in this race. If the terrain and enemy behavior all goes in the PC's favor then grease is strong. And I'm not disputing that it can be strong when everything aligns, just that these factors rarely align to make that the case. They shouldn't have even aligned in this instance being discussed. The whole scenario relies on cramped terrain, a readied spell with a very specific trigger that relies on enemies behaving tactically dumb. The stars essentially have to align for this to work. Then let's look at what was actually bought in this scenario? In the best case scenario (with everything aligning and the lead creature failing his save) you cost the lead enemy and all others 15 ft of movement on the current turn. You cost the lead creature 15ft of movement on the subsequent turn. And then the remaining ATST's walk into the grease make/fail their save, stand up and continue on their way. All you actually bought was a single turn worth of movement. Which would be really good if you could continue kiting away but the terrain prevents that. Preventing the whole enemy team 1 round of movement isn't inconsequential, but given the scenario that appears to be fairly minor advantage to me. You essentially prevented 1 ATST from attacking in melee for 1 round (as the terrain wouldn't have allowed more than 1 in melee at a time anyways). That's actually worse. If the PC's retreat to that room let the ATST's wait and recharge their guns to shoot whatever walks around the corner. Why take 3 large creatures in a single file line after the PC's when you can just wait them out and/or wait for reinforcements. It's not my last post and I really want to address this. No one disputes grease can be good in certain scenarios. It's just that (a) those scenarios are pretty rare, (b) that the advantage actually being gained usually isn't actually as big as while it at first appears (as above what appeared to be keeping 3 ATST's from melee range was actually keeping 1 from melee range for a turn as the PC's had a terrain advantage to funnel them in one at a time even without grease), and (c) action economy wise, there were better rock, paper scissor spells. For example, Slow or Confusion would have been a much better action economy investment on a spell (and it's not like you are short on 3rd and 4th+ level slots). On this we agree. It's not then either, as action economy becomes the more important consideration and there are simply better spells for stalling enemies than grease. IMO, there are only a few actual use cases for grease at high level and primary movement/action depravation isn't one of them. (I expand on the use cases in the next paragraph). Sure. Versatility adds power as you are more likely to have the perfect spell for the job. It's just that grease is rarely ever going to be the perfect spell for any job. Which is why attempting to use it as an example has faced such pushback. We can even elaborate on this concept. A spell's power isn't as related to what it says on the tin as much as what it does in the actual cases you use it. At some point it stops mattering how badly a spell sucks in every other situation as you have other spells you are going to use in those situations. The problem for grease in this analysis is that typically other spells accomplish movement/action depravation better than grease and so it's only true use cases are to cause damage via granting advantage to melee characters, using when you are already concentrating on a better spell or really need to conserve higher level spell slots. [/QUOTE]
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