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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9587371" data-attributes="member: 6750235">I gave an example of out of combat utility and you made a claim against the skill system.  It's a DC check for a favor.  It's a bonus available to every fighter and not available to wizards or most casters.To what end?  The echo is a combat ability when fighters have combat abilities and a potential scout.  That seems minor to me.Except for those skill bonuses in the maneuvers and the bonus proficiencies, and all the other benefits fighters get like bonus feats.It's easy enough have a potion of comprehension or climbing.  The uncommon list includes things like oil of slipperiness, water breathing, or resistance.  A 3rd level battle master going this route can apply the effects of the 4th level spell freedom of movement this way via potion brewing.  Or have fun making grease areas.The drawback is it's still a limited resource that takes longer to build up.The mechanics are DC 10, DC 15, DC 20 and possibly higher at DC's 25 and 30.  We've never had an issue using these mechanics.If the end result is the same it doesn't matter.A hidden person cannot be seen.  2024 stealth creates the invisible condition.  The conditions blindness causes are available to martial classes regardless of creating actual blindness.To what end?  If the point is the disadvantage then mission accomplished.  If the point is not being seen then engage in stealth tactics.  These are easily available on martial classes.The fear spell isn't useful outside of combat either and casting is going to start combat.  The fear spell gets opponents to drop items and run away.  The combat maneuvers can create the frightened condition, disarm the target, and push the opponent away using weapon mastery because these take attacks instead of actions. Tactical master will later add additional options to the sequence of attacks doing more than the fear spell but to single targets instead of an AoE.No, the non-rogue martial might need to use more attempts to accomplish the same thing.  By taking 20 times the required time the success becomes guaranteed as long as it's possible.  The standard DC to open a lock is 15 and gets everyone out instead of just the caster with something like misty step.Between the options of picking the lock, picking the pocket for the key, and possibly convincing a guard to help escape there are options.  They're also more more fun than "I take forever but wriggler free of my bonds and cast misty step".I think the skill system works well.Using the skill system is one of the base mechanics of the game.TBF, it's kind of DM dependent.  If the action to waiting for the response is "starting to cast a spell" then there's an interruption.  Or "when the wizard lifts his wand to cast a spell".  The implied timing is in preparation for a spell that hasn't actually been cast yet.Stunning or knocking the casters unconscious with cunning strike effectively prevent spell casting anyway.Which makes the argument of what the casters can do superfluous abilities and meaningless.Getting to a destination faster doesn't change the narrative unless the DM is intentionally creating the need to get to a destination faster.  In gameplay it can also be travelled by montage and a meaningless distinction.Meanwhile, that also avoids and invalidates occurrences that might occur that are meaningful on the travel by bypassing them.In the end, what was the actual outcome that travelling faster created that made it relevant?I can use the travel time inside a covered wagon with my alchemist supplies brewing potions per my example above during the travel time so how was getting there faster more useful?The inability to teleport does not leave martial classes hard done by.It is available to them.  Via NPC.  The ability to trade gold for spells from NPC's makes the spells from PC's less valuable.Healing spells are typically a poor use for spell slots, but using the healer feat isn't self healing and it's available to anyone.  All that self healing devalues the ability to heal others because it can remove the necessity to do that healing in the first place.It's not useful to heal Bob 14 hp with a spell if Bob can heal himself those same hit points anyway.</blockquote>

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