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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 9649630" data-attributes="member: 2067">I just want to be more precise about what we're talking about when we say that martials are "weak." Weak is a sloppy term. It's subjective and vibes-based. So I want to know: What is the actual experience a player is having in the moment? What are they missing out on? Then, we can explore why that's happening and get useful solutions in place. Because if they're missing out because they deal less damage or have fewer action denial options, the solution space looks very different from if the player is jealous of teleporting and granting wishes. If the root of the problem is that the player thought they were in a different genre, or don't like how high-level D&D changes, those are also separate problems. The problem might also be "message boards keep telling me martials are weak, so I assume they are." I'm interested in talking about potential problems and fixes to this game I spend too much time thinking about, but the vagueness of the issue negatively impacts the potential utility of conversation in this case. Folks just talk past each other.</blockquote>