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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6378901" data-attributes="member: 996">Actually, the fact that the list of names is not supported by the rules or game-play /is the point/.  A D&D fighter cannot come close to accomplishing the things attributed to the characters of myth and legend that are held up as examples of fighters.  Conversely, a spellcaster can often do the full range of things displayed by the figures of myth and legend held up as examples of them - all those examples, and more.  A single of fairly high level, for instance, can duplicate not only most of the things attributed to Merlin (and, really, there aren't that many), but those attributed to Circe, Medea, and Prospero for good measure.  At only 5th level, he can handle most of the actual magics displayed by Gandalf, as well, though he's not mythic, but literary.  That's really the crux of the disconnect.The /excuse/ is 'realism,' and it's a really, really, bad excuse. That's a nice idea.  It's never worked.Got any other ideas? Actually, until we can get over the hurdle of definitions of 'magical,' supernatural, mundane, and so forth, we can't get anywhere, because the 'realism' excuse will keep getting used to cripple 'mundane' characters.First of all, no hero in a fantasy setting is really /mundane/, they may have mundane origins, but they're out there in a fantastic world, doing extraordinary things.  Secondly, something that's not precisely reaal-world 'realistic' isn't necessarily supernatural.  Take your example of shattering a castle wall.  People aren't strong enough to shatter castle walls.  But, physical force applied to a castle wall can shatter it, and people can exert physical force, it's just a matter of degree.  In a fantasy world, freed from the dull, mundane limitations of RL physics, nothing stops an increadibly strong hero (or giant or whatever) from breaking through a castle wall by main strength.  It's not supernatural, because castle walls are just objects and objects can be broken by main strength, it's just an extreme example of main strength.  What would be supernatural would be shattering the same wall with a spoken word, or by tracing runes on it.  Fighters don't have to be /mundane/ to avoid being supernatural.  The 'realism' argument is bunk.  If you want realism, avoid the fantasy genre.   It's not that simple.  It's not, one side of the debate wants to play one sort of character and the other side another.  It's some folks want to play non-caster characters who are equal to the sources of inspiration in genre, and the other is determined to stop them (even as casters surpass their sources of genre inspiration).  That's a double-standard, and one that has impacted the quality of D&D, as a game, and the civility of it's fanbase, throughout it's history.</blockquote>

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