Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Martial Dailies - How so?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 4133547" data-attributes="member: 32164"><p>Emphasis mine.</p><p></p><p>Here's the problem. That purely simulationist rationalization <strong>does not exist.</strong></p><p></p><p>Fourth Edition draws a solid distinction between the players at the table and the characters in the game. The characters move through their lives, blissfully unaware of the game rules that govern probability. All they know is that they can only pull off this power "every once in a while." You can argue that they attempt it more often than once a day, or that they'd notice it happens once a day, but you're using a perception of things that the PCs themselves don't possess.</p><p></p><p>Tordek the fighter has no idea that he's a puppet controlled by someone playing a game. He isn't aware that the particular circumstances that allow him to use his "daily" power come up "once a day" or that they come up <em>whenever his player decides they do.</em> Tordek isn't the player - he's a character in the game world with no knowledge of the mechanics of the game. He might think "man, I wish I could do that more often" or "man, I wish those circumstances came up more often," but he isn't aware of consciously deciding to use the ability.</p><p></p><p>To use the Ranger example, Split the Tree is a specific stunt. Sure, Riardon knows that he can pull two arrows and load them into his bow, but giving him the ability as a daily power prevents the DM from having to track precise positioning, wind speed, and other factors in order to figure out when the conditions are just right that Riardon has a chance of pulling it off. Instead, Riardon's <em>player</em> gets to say when the "conditions are right."</p><p></p><p>What you seem to want is a system that decrees this happens only X% of the time. From a purely simulationist viewpoint, you'd be able to use your best ability whenever conditions were right. Short of DM fiat, or tracking a crazy number of variables, you'd rule those conditions came up, say, 5% of the time, meaning the character could pull it off, on average, about once every 20 attacks. However, that generates really "swingy" results, since if the player is lucky with the dice, the character might be able to do it every round, and if he's unlucky, he might never get the chance to use his cool power.</p><p></p><p>Another way to model this is the token system in <em>Iron Heroes</em>, where different "powers" cost different numbers of tokens. A refinement to that system would have provided the same thing, without the "standing around doing nothing" issues in the original IH system. IMO (and that of Mike Mearls, who designed the token system, but seems to have disregarded that idea for both the <em>Book of Nine Swords</em> and 4E), the added "realism" is just not worth the bookkeeping headache.</p><p></p><p>Partly it's a cinematic consideration. Shooting two opponents at once is cool if it happens infrequently. If it's happening every round, it starts to feel a bit cheesy.</p><p></p><p>The point is that Fourth Edition is not a strictly simulationist game. There's "narrativist" aspects to it, which grant players more control over the game world. If you're uncomfortable with this aspect, it's just not the game for you, and no rationalization is available that will satisfy you.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: Although I have to admit, Remathilis's "in the zone" explanation is pretty solid. It's still reflective of the player deciding when his character enters that "zone," something that real people don't usually have quite have that much control over.</p><p></p><p>For a filmed example of this, I recommend the Kevin Costner baseball flick <em>For Love of the Game</em>. The character pitches the game of his life just as he's contemplating retirement. He's totally "in the zone."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JohnSnow, post: 4133547, member: 32164"] Emphasis mine. Here's the problem. That purely simulationist rationalization [b]does not exist.[/b] Fourth Edition draws a solid distinction between the players at the table and the characters in the game. The characters move through their lives, blissfully unaware of the game rules that govern probability. All they know is that they can only pull off this power "every once in a while." You can argue that they attempt it more often than once a day, or that they'd notice it happens once a day, but you're using a perception of things that the PCs themselves don't possess. Tordek the fighter has no idea that he's a puppet controlled by someone playing a game. He isn't aware that the particular circumstances that allow him to use his "daily" power come up "once a day" or that they come up [i]whenever his player decides they do.[/i] Tordek isn't the player - he's a character in the game world with no knowledge of the mechanics of the game. He might think "man, I wish I could do that more often" or "man, I wish those circumstances came up more often," but he isn't aware of consciously deciding to use the ability. To use the Ranger example, Split the Tree is a specific stunt. Sure, Riardon knows that he can pull two arrows and load them into his bow, but giving him the ability as a daily power prevents the DM from having to track precise positioning, wind speed, and other factors in order to figure out when the conditions are just right that Riardon has a chance of pulling it off. Instead, Riardon's [i]player[/i] gets to say when the "conditions are right." What you seem to want is a system that decrees this happens only X% of the time. From a purely simulationist viewpoint, you'd be able to use your best ability whenever conditions were right. Short of DM fiat, or tracking a crazy number of variables, you'd rule those conditions came up, say, 5% of the time, meaning the character could pull it off, on average, about once every 20 attacks. However, that generates really "swingy" results, since if the player is lucky with the dice, the character might be able to do it every round, and if he's unlucky, he might never get the chance to use his cool power. Another way to model this is the token system in [i]Iron Heroes[/i], where different "powers" cost different numbers of tokens. A refinement to that system would have provided the same thing, without the "standing around doing nothing" issues in the original IH system. IMO (and that of Mike Mearls, who designed the token system, but seems to have disregarded that idea for both the [i]Book of Nine Swords[/i] and 4E), the added "realism" is just not worth the bookkeeping headache. Partly it's a cinematic consideration. Shooting two opponents at once is cool if it happens infrequently. If it's happening every round, it starts to feel a bit cheesy. The point is that Fourth Edition is not a strictly simulationist game. There's "narrativist" aspects to it, which grant players more control over the game world. If you're uncomfortable with this aspect, it's just not the game for you, and no rationalization is available that will satisfy you. EDIT: Although I have to admit, Remathilis's "in the zone" explanation is pretty solid. It's still reflective of the player deciding when his character enters that "zone," something that real people don't usually have quite have that much control over. For a filmed example of this, I recommend the Kevin Costner baseball flick [i]For Love of the Game[/i]. The character pitches the game of his life just as he's contemplating retirement. He's totally "in the zone." [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Martial Dailies - How so?
Top