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General Tabletop Discussion
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Martial, Magic or Mundane? What can X do in 5e
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5783160" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I hear this a lot, but the problem is it doesn't at all address the agency that casters have. Even at level 1 your wizard can drop 4 enemies instantly with no save, make someone instantly into a friend, unerringly shoot a lethal (to normal people and most at-level monsters at least) bolt of magic, etc. Now, at that level the fighter could do things IN COMBAT that are at least as useful, but out of combat what could he do? Nothing the wizard couldn't do just as well, except take damage, which is nice but not much. That's the BEST you get, and it goes downhill from there.</p><p></p><p>It is a mistake for people to think that equality means "equally useful in a fight", that's only scratching the surface.</p><p></p><p>Finally I don't really get the whole concept that somehow the 4e fighter or other martial classes were all that 'magical' in any sense. Read through the fighter level 29 capstone daily powers. Sorry, nothing in there looks very magical to me. You could do some fairly amazing stuff with skill checks, but so could everyone else and they weren't THAT off the wall, even at 30th level it was only a bit crazy (maybe jump 60' or something, which is impossible for a normal human, but at least easily imaginable).</p><p></p><p>Neither did 4e fighters REALLY solve the 'agency' issue. They sort of worked around it a bit, and you could mix in some 'magic' with your peanut butter, but the wizard still has you beat in a lot of situations. You really have to rely on PP and ED stuff to get close. I'm OK with that, it isn't perfect, but you do get to be a real combat god and in general they got close enough to make both martial and magical classes fun enough to feel equally interesting in play. Maybe I can't teleport 1000 miles, but I'm at least not in a different weight class like in higher level pre-4e.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5783160, member: 82106"] I hear this a lot, but the problem is it doesn't at all address the agency that casters have. Even at level 1 your wizard can drop 4 enemies instantly with no save, make someone instantly into a friend, unerringly shoot a lethal (to normal people and most at-level monsters at least) bolt of magic, etc. Now, at that level the fighter could do things IN COMBAT that are at least as useful, but out of combat what could he do? Nothing the wizard couldn't do just as well, except take damage, which is nice but not much. That's the BEST you get, and it goes downhill from there. It is a mistake for people to think that equality means "equally useful in a fight", that's only scratching the surface. Finally I don't really get the whole concept that somehow the 4e fighter or other martial classes were all that 'magical' in any sense. Read through the fighter level 29 capstone daily powers. Sorry, nothing in there looks very magical to me. You could do some fairly amazing stuff with skill checks, but so could everyone else and they weren't THAT off the wall, even at 30th level it was only a bit crazy (maybe jump 60' or something, which is impossible for a normal human, but at least easily imaginable). Neither did 4e fighters REALLY solve the 'agency' issue. They sort of worked around it a bit, and you could mix in some 'magic' with your peanut butter, but the wizard still has you beat in a lot of situations. You really have to rely on PP and ED stuff to get close. I'm OK with that, it isn't perfect, but you do get to be a real combat god and in general they got close enough to make both martial and magical classes fun enough to feel equally interesting in play. Maybe I can't teleport 1000 miles, but I'm at least not in a different weight class like in higher level pre-4e. [/QUOTE]
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