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Martials should just get free feats
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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8978175" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>You are not considering shields which every martial character except a Monk can use. Yes</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If they have an 20 Dexterity, which is not common at all. A fighter can have an 18</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which a Wizard does not even have proficiency in. The point is a fighter can use any weapon the wizard has proficiency in and use a shield.</p><p></p><p>And to go back to 20 dexterity that Wizard's routinely have, the best melee weapon a wizard is proficient in which is usable with that 20 dexterity is a dagger!</p><p></p><p>Not only can a fighter have an 18 while also using 2 handed weapons, they can have a 20 while using a plethora of 1d8 weapons.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The fighter can have a BOTH 20 strength and a 20 dex, get it earlier than a wizard with the same rolls can get a 20Int and 20Dex, have more hit points and a higher constitution to boot (due to the extra ASI) .</p><p></p><p>So there is no combat-related reason such a fighter will be in studded leather when he could just as easily where plate and have a better AC.</p><p></p><p>If the Wizard is going to boost his dexterity all the way to 20 to get that 18 AC and bolster your strawman argument, then the dex-based fighter is certainly going to boost his strength to at least 15 to be able to do the same thing. If that extra poinf AC is enough for the Wizard to take multiple ASIs to get to 18, then it is worth it for the fighter to take fewer ASIs (or just start with a 15) to get it.</p><p></p><p>Which brings up another good point - If we are playing on point buy, the Wizard can start with a 16AC if he invests heavily in dexterity. The dex-based fighter only needs to invest 15 in strength to be able to use all armors, effectively making 18AC possible at 1st level, (without a fighting style) while requiring less initial investment than a Wizard needs to get to 16. Assuming the Wizard maxes intelligence first, ignores Con for ASIs and takes no feat, at 16th level he will finally get to where the Dex-based fighter was at 1st level with a smaller off-main stat investment..</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok this is all over the map.</p><p></p><p>1. The fighter using a rapier is going to have a AC of 21 as illustrated above since he will be wearing plate and a shield, or alternatively he will have a 20 AC and be doing 1d8+7 with dueling. Why would he not be wearing plate and a shield when using a rapier?</p><p></p><p>2. It looks like you are using subclasses here and chose an extremely weak Champion as your fighter. If you did that you forgot to add the second fighting style which means he has BOTH dueling AND defense.</p><p></p><p>3. I am not sure what you are doing for the Wizard number here. If you are looking at a bladesinger with a 20 dex and 16 intelligence the actual damage is in bladesong 1 attack 1d8+8, 1 cantrip attack 4d8+8</p><p></p><p>So to correct the fighter numbers, since the actual attack bonuses are the same we will assume all hits:</p><p></p><p>Fighter: 1d8+7 with crit on 18+ is 12.175 per hit or 48.7 per attack action. With 6 fights a day, 2 fights per short rest and 4 rounds per fighter gets 30 attack actions a day (24 actions, 6 action surges). <strong>Total melee damage for the day is 1461 damage</strong> (assuming all hits)</p><p></p><p>Wizard: 5d8+14 is 39.625 damage per attack action in bladesong. He gets 24 attack actions <strong>total melee damage for the day of 951 </strong>or roughly two thirds of the damage the fighter does</p><p></p><p>That is damage for a crappy fighter subclass against a Bladesinger in Bladesong which is the best melee wizard. Put a better fighter in there and you will run away even more.</p><p></p><p>You say it is equal but it is not even close.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How do you add intelligence to your cantrip damage if you were not using a subclass?</p><p></p><p>The numbers I gave above are for a bladesinger and they are way behind a basic crappy champion at that level. Not a little behind, way behind and they don't consider things like using actions to cast false life, defensive spells in combat, more than 6 fights (out of bladesong) or losing bladesong mid fight.</p><p></p><p>Now on the defensive side, I agree a Wizard can be every bit of the tank a fighter can. A better tank in fact than a fighter can ever manage if optimised for that. But such a wizard will not keep up in melee damage. It is not even close. To keep up in melee they need to use offensive melee oriented spells (shadowblade, haste, Spirit Shroud etc) and if they do that they will not be as effective at tanking.</p><p></p><p>One other thing to note on hp is they are a daily resource, not just a total resource. A fighter with 180hps and 3 short rests a day has the hit points he ends his long rest with plus the hit points in his hit dice plus the hit points in second wind 3 times a day. A fighter with 180hps total will have between 347.5-437.5 hit points per day to "spend" depending on how many hit dice he starts the day with. A Wizard with 120hps total has between 180-240hps per day to spend (not including any from false life). This matters when you are talking about how much damage a character can take over the course of a day.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8978175, member: 7030563"] You are not considering shields which every martial character except a Monk can use. Yes If they have an 20 Dexterity, which is not common at all. A fighter can have an 18 Which a Wizard does not even have proficiency in. The point is a fighter can use any weapon the wizard has proficiency in and use a shield. And to go back to 20 dexterity that Wizard's routinely have, the best melee weapon a wizard is proficient in which is usable with that 20 dexterity is a dagger! Not only can a fighter have an 18 while also using 2 handed weapons, they can have a 20 while using a plethora of 1d8 weapons. The fighter can have a BOTH 20 strength and a 20 dex, get it earlier than a wizard with the same rolls can get a 20Int and 20Dex, have more hit points and a higher constitution to boot (due to the extra ASI) . So there is no combat-related reason such a fighter will be in studded leather when he could just as easily where plate and have a better AC. If the Wizard is going to boost his dexterity all the way to 20 to get that 18 AC and bolster your strawman argument, then the dex-based fighter is certainly going to boost his strength to at least 15 to be able to do the same thing. If that extra poinf AC is enough for the Wizard to take multiple ASIs to get to 18, then it is worth it for the fighter to take fewer ASIs (or just start with a 15) to get it. Which brings up another good point - If we are playing on point buy, the Wizard can start with a 16AC if he invests heavily in dexterity. The dex-based fighter only needs to invest 15 in strength to be able to use all armors, effectively making 18AC possible at 1st level, (without a fighting style) while requiring less initial investment than a Wizard needs to get to 16. Assuming the Wizard maxes intelligence first, ignores Con for ASIs and takes no feat, at 16th level he will finally get to where the Dex-based fighter was at 1st level with a smaller off-main stat investment.. Ok this is all over the map. 1. The fighter using a rapier is going to have a AC of 21 as illustrated above since he will be wearing plate and a shield, or alternatively he will have a 20 AC and be doing 1d8+7 with dueling. Why would he not be wearing plate and a shield when using a rapier? 2. It looks like you are using subclasses here and chose an extremely weak Champion as your fighter. If you did that you forgot to add the second fighting style which means he has BOTH dueling AND defense. 3. I am not sure what you are doing for the Wizard number here. If you are looking at a bladesinger with a 20 dex and 16 intelligence the actual damage is in bladesong 1 attack 1d8+8, 1 cantrip attack 4d8+8 So to correct the fighter numbers, since the actual attack bonuses are the same we will assume all hits: Fighter: 1d8+7 with crit on 18+ is 12.175 per hit or 48.7 per attack action. With 6 fights a day, 2 fights per short rest and 4 rounds per fighter gets 30 attack actions a day (24 actions, 6 action surges). [B]Total melee damage for the day is 1461 damage[/B] (assuming all hits) Wizard: 5d8+14 is 39.625 damage per attack action in bladesong. He gets 24 attack actions [B]total melee damage for the day of 951 [/B]or roughly two thirds of the damage the fighter does That is damage for a crappy fighter subclass against a Bladesinger in Bladesong which is the best melee wizard. Put a better fighter in there and you will run away even more. You say it is equal but it is not even close. How do you add intelligence to your cantrip damage if you were not using a subclass? The numbers I gave above are for a bladesinger and they are way behind a basic crappy champion at that level. Not a little behind, way behind and they don't consider things like using actions to cast false life, defensive spells in combat, more than 6 fights (out of bladesong) or losing bladesong mid fight. Now on the defensive side, I agree a Wizard can be every bit of the tank a fighter can. A better tank in fact than a fighter can ever manage if optimised for that. But such a wizard will not keep up in melee damage. It is not even close. To keep up in melee they need to use offensive melee oriented spells (shadowblade, haste, Spirit Shroud etc) and if they do that they will not be as effective at tanking. One other thing to note on hp is they are a daily resource, not just a total resource. A fighter with 180hps and 3 short rests a day has the hit points he ends his long rest with plus the hit points in his hit dice plus the hit points in second wind 3 times a day. A fighter with 180hps total will have between 347.5-437.5 hit points per day to "spend" depending on how many hit dice he starts the day with. A Wizard with 120hps total has between 180-240hps per day to spend (not including any from false life). This matters when you are talking about how much damage a character can take over the course of a day. [/QUOTE]
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