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Martials should just get free feats
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<blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8978340" data-attributes="member: 67338"><p>right cause getting a shield prof is easy, and aagain anyone can get it... so no that didn't enter in, and at best gives the fighter a +2 AC but also the warcleric and I think hexblade and valor bard but I would have to check... if your argument is that shield prof is equal to having 3rd+ level spells you are in a bad postion already... let alone 9th level spells.</p><p></p><p>if stats are equal to start fighter has 1 feat/ASI bonus over the caster at level 6 (so by level 12 witch is the entire game for most people, and more then half the game for everyone) and 2 feat/asi by 20th (16th or 17th I think)</p><p></p><p>notice I didn't give the wizard a 20 Int at all... if you WANT TO MELEE you most likely will put dex and con over int.</p><p></p><p>maybe I will give you this... I just am not used to seeing fighters with 15+ dex wearing heavy armor since they can't use there dex in it (exception is the barbarian subclass from middle earth that lets you use full dex in any armor... I have seen that end up with plate(full or half) + high dex) in theory you could get 1 more with plate I just don't see it often enough to have thought that way.</p><p></p><p>this isn't a strawman since I didn't assume any argument on your or anyone else part... I think you want to accuse me of a different fake made up fallacy from debate class... but we are talking not debating for points so I don't care enough to even learn them... but I do know this isn't a strawman.</p><p></p><p>once again, okay fair enough +1 higher AC for plate.</p><p></p><p>I may just have missed it but what class or background gives you plate at 1st level?</p><p></p><p>if you see the edit I missed the dueling I admited that within 3 or 4 minutes of posting... the AC I will grant you is 1 higher (and both can grab shields)</p><p></p><p>here we go... the champion is the defualt... I gave it cause it is easy. you want to try to run something better (my guess will be rune knight or psiknight) you will be at the same for atwill output EXCEPT loose that 18+crit and half prof to a bunch of skills to get some (admitidly more fun) tricks a few times per day... but nothing on par with a 5th level spell, most likely you wont find something like a 3rd level one but for sure the 2 6th 2 7th 1 8th and 1 9th level spell the wizard has alone not countign the other 5 levels will blow those options away so it wont help. </p><p></p><p>the base weapon is 1d8+5 plus 3d8+3 fire and an ajacent creature takes 3d8+3 fire.</p><p></p><p>that is 2/3rd damage if the wizard never has an adjacent enemy to green flame, and if the wizard never takes 1 round to use a high level spell. just at will (and only 1 of 5 at wills the wizard has) your math does 2/3 the damage. that is the best the fighter can do and the least the wizard can do.</p><p></p><p>congrats that is the best example I have ever seen. A wizard useing an atwill cantrip (1 of 5) and a fighter useing all his action surges and getting 2 short rests to keep reuseing them the fighter does 1/3 more damage. that wizard still has 4 more at wills and 9 levels of spell slots.</p><p></p><p>blade song doesn't add to damage it adds to AC, so it is just a blade singer all day long... the blade song boost his AC over or equal to the fighter and what fighter subclass is at will giving you better then that 18+ crit and second fighting style?</p><p></p><p>I mean it's one of the only, maybe the only worth talking about melee but it is useing the melee cantrip that wizards, sorcerers, artificers and warlocks all have (green flame blade) or with a feat anyone can have (but that only really helps the eldritch knight fighter who I think can also grab it TBF)</p><p></p><p>what fighter gets better atwill damage? also how does that (not atwill) resources stack up to even 3rd level spells?</p><p></p><p>your best bet got the wizard useing no resources per day to 2/3 the damage.</p><p></p><p>green flame blade adds Int to damage at 1st level then adds 1/2/3D8s at 5/11/17 </p><p></p><p>my non melee weak wizard can take a staff or knife or I think club and swap out for a day to have green flame blade and add int to damage at level 1 no sub class (Not what I would recomend mind you but they can)</p><p></p><p>champion is your best bet for at will with that 18+ crit and your least fun option... BUT yes it is going agianst THE MELEE WIZARD and the fighter is useing all of there resources (action surge) and the wizard is useing non of his (spells). and you STILL got to 2/3rd.</p><p></p><p>no I would not consider casting false life in any battle unless I was brain dead... I said that spell (That wasn't even my example at first but one adopted from this thread and I am still waiting on hearing if people actuallly think it's worth trying) was only if you had some down time between fights... but since you gave us 2 short rests we know we have some.</p><p></p><p>why is that wizard useing all 3-5 of his cantrips everyturn? because if not greenflame blade is all I used and by YOUR math that at will is 2/3 the out put of a fighter... </p><p>in your mind is the tanking wizard useing every single spell slot to tank too? what 7th or 8th level spells? (Yeah I hear people talk about dropping a 9th level immunity if that is what you mean, but again myself I have never seen it used well)</p><p></p><p>I just did it with green flame blade as 2/3 the damage, so add 1 not all of those and it is better then 2/3 and that is if at no point they start at range and the wizard drops a 3rd or 4th level spell.</p><p></p><p>that is true the fighter d10HD is a bonus over the wizard d6s... and I will even admit I have seen low and mid level parties need to use half or more of there HD on occasion so on those days the fighter does have the edge of 2pts of healing on average per die. I should list that more. Sorry.</p><p></p><p>the problem is that most parties have someone that can heal (and again the wizard is not only the weakest caster for melee but one of the only ones that can't self heal), and that makes the numbers un usable...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GMforPowergamers, post: 8978340, member: 67338"] right cause getting a shield prof is easy, and aagain anyone can get it... so no that didn't enter in, and at best gives the fighter a +2 AC but also the warcleric and I think hexblade and valor bard but I would have to check... if your argument is that shield prof is equal to having 3rd+ level spells you are in a bad postion already... let alone 9th level spells. if stats are equal to start fighter has 1 feat/ASI bonus over the caster at level 6 (so by level 12 witch is the entire game for most people, and more then half the game for everyone) and 2 feat/asi by 20th (16th or 17th I think) notice I didn't give the wizard a 20 Int at all... if you WANT TO MELEE you most likely will put dex and con over int. maybe I will give you this... I just am not used to seeing fighters with 15+ dex wearing heavy armor since they can't use there dex in it (exception is the barbarian subclass from middle earth that lets you use full dex in any armor... I have seen that end up with plate(full or half) + high dex) in theory you could get 1 more with plate I just don't see it often enough to have thought that way. this isn't a strawman since I didn't assume any argument on your or anyone else part... I think you want to accuse me of a different fake made up fallacy from debate class... but we are talking not debating for points so I don't care enough to even learn them... but I do know this isn't a strawman. once again, okay fair enough +1 higher AC for plate. I may just have missed it but what class or background gives you plate at 1st level? if you see the edit I missed the dueling I admited that within 3 or 4 minutes of posting... the AC I will grant you is 1 higher (and both can grab shields) here we go... the champion is the defualt... I gave it cause it is easy. you want to try to run something better (my guess will be rune knight or psiknight) you will be at the same for atwill output EXCEPT loose that 18+crit and half prof to a bunch of skills to get some (admitidly more fun) tricks a few times per day... but nothing on par with a 5th level spell, most likely you wont find something like a 3rd level one but for sure the 2 6th 2 7th 1 8th and 1 9th level spell the wizard has alone not countign the other 5 levels will blow those options away so it wont help. the base weapon is 1d8+5 plus 3d8+3 fire and an ajacent creature takes 3d8+3 fire. that is 2/3rd damage if the wizard never has an adjacent enemy to green flame, and if the wizard never takes 1 round to use a high level spell. just at will (and only 1 of 5 at wills the wizard has) your math does 2/3 the damage. that is the best the fighter can do and the least the wizard can do. congrats that is the best example I have ever seen. A wizard useing an atwill cantrip (1 of 5) and a fighter useing all his action surges and getting 2 short rests to keep reuseing them the fighter does 1/3 more damage. that wizard still has 4 more at wills and 9 levels of spell slots. blade song doesn't add to damage it adds to AC, so it is just a blade singer all day long... the blade song boost his AC over or equal to the fighter and what fighter subclass is at will giving you better then that 18+ crit and second fighting style? I mean it's one of the only, maybe the only worth talking about melee but it is useing the melee cantrip that wizards, sorcerers, artificers and warlocks all have (green flame blade) or with a feat anyone can have (but that only really helps the eldritch knight fighter who I think can also grab it TBF) what fighter gets better atwill damage? also how does that (not atwill) resources stack up to even 3rd level spells? your best bet got the wizard useing no resources per day to 2/3 the damage. green flame blade adds Int to damage at 1st level then adds 1/2/3D8s at 5/11/17 my non melee weak wizard can take a staff or knife or I think club and swap out for a day to have green flame blade and add int to damage at level 1 no sub class (Not what I would recomend mind you but they can) champion is your best bet for at will with that 18+ crit and your least fun option... BUT yes it is going agianst THE MELEE WIZARD and the fighter is useing all of there resources (action surge) and the wizard is useing non of his (spells). and you STILL got to 2/3rd. no I would not consider casting false life in any battle unless I was brain dead... I said that spell (That wasn't even my example at first but one adopted from this thread and I am still waiting on hearing if people actuallly think it's worth trying) was only if you had some down time between fights... but since you gave us 2 short rests we know we have some. why is that wizard useing all 3-5 of his cantrips everyturn? because if not greenflame blade is all I used and by YOUR math that at will is 2/3 the out put of a fighter... in your mind is the tanking wizard useing every single spell slot to tank too? what 7th or 8th level spells? (Yeah I hear people talk about dropping a 9th level immunity if that is what you mean, but again myself I have never seen it used well) I just did it with green flame blade as 2/3 the damage, so add 1 not all of those and it is better then 2/3 and that is if at no point they start at range and the wizard drops a 3rd or 4th level spell. that is true the fighter d10HD is a bonus over the wizard d6s... and I will even admit I have seen low and mid level parties need to use half or more of there HD on occasion so on those days the fighter does have the edge of 2pts of healing on average per die. I should list that more. Sorry. the problem is that most parties have someone that can heal (and again the wizard is not only the weakest caster for melee but one of the only ones that can't self heal), and that makes the numbers un usable... [/QUOTE]
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