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Martials should just get free feats
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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8978513" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>It gives the fighter a 20AC and is universally available as part of their class. You were talking abotu a fighter and an 18 AC, but why would you be playing such a character when you could easily have a 20</p><p></p><p>I said it would give a fighter a 20 or 21AC (not 17, not 18 which the numbers you were throwing around) while also doing twice as much damage in melee as the wizard cantrip numbers you posted. Literally twice as much.</p><p></p><p>Who said it was equal to 3rd and 9th level spells? I never said that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>1 ASI is two more points. Morover when talking about melee the fighter is generally less MAD and can make strength and dexterity and constitution his three highest stats. It is more difficult to build a Wizard to do this</p><p></p><p>Finally your whole arguement is the Wizard can easily have a 20 Dexterity. Doing that on point buy before level 12 means at most he has invested 2 points in intelligence OR taken 1 feat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In a discussion focused on both tanakability and DPR a Rune Knight is one of the better ones (Battlemaster is the best but the math for that is overwhelming).</p><p></p><p>Being able to crit on an 18 adds less than 4DPR to the champion build. The Rune Knight has that beat by a mile because he makes one eitght of his attacks at advantage, gets an extra 1d10 damage per round (and he can float it to a different attack if he misses). On the tankability side the RK gets resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing as well as the ability to transfer an entire attack to someone else and restrain one enemy a short rest.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure. But you did give the Wizard an intelligence bonus to his cantrip that he does not gdet as a class feature.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes they can use dex in it. They have disadvantage on stealth checks, they do not have any penalties on any other dexterity checks, and disadvantage is not the same as auto failure.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or actually +3e more for plate and a shield/</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I said possible, not available. Moreover it is going to take your max out dex Wizard 8 levels to get there, while investing more in an off-stat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The half proficiency to a bunch of skills is irrelevant in a discussion focused on melee damage and tankability only (as for that matter is access to 9th level spells if you don't use them for one of these things).</p><p></p><p>What 7th level spell is going to give the Wizard more tankability or melee damage? Your arguement is this is important to doing these things, tell me what spell you are going to use for that (I know what I would use).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok to start with Green Flame Blade does not add your intelligence modifier to the creature you attack with it. I have said this a few times now. The only ways to do that which I know of are to play school of Evocation-Evocation mastery or School of Bladesinging-Song of Victory.</p><p></p><p>Second in the uncommon situation where there is a 2nd enemy next to the first you are doing 7d8+8 damage total, which is still substantially less than the champion fighter doing 4d8+28.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Where do you get 2/3rds from?</p><p></p><p>4d8+5 is <strong>23.9DPR</strong></p><p></p><p>A base fighter with no subclass is doing 4d8+28 is doing<strong> 46.9DPR</strong>, with dueling and no subclass (i.e. no crit on a 18).</p><p></p><p>23.9 is A LOT closer to 50% than it is to 2/3rds.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is 50% less.</p><p></p><p>Instead of going on and on about these theoreticals post some actual spells with real numbers that are going to accomplish what you claim - 95% of the tankability and 100% or more of the melee damage simultaneously for the course of a day.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That is exactly what I claimed from the begining. to be clear this is the closest Wizard I can come up with and a relatively weak fighter over a normal adventuring day and it is nowhere near the same, not even close.</p><p></p><p>If you can beat it, then put up spells and numbers to do that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok. How is he going to use them to beat the fighter in melee damage while maintaining 95% of the tankability.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>WRONG. At 14th level being in Bladesong adds intelligence modifier to weapon attacks and I used that in the calculations I made.</p><p></p><p>The Champion fighter you chose to use gets 2 fighting styles, one at 1st level , one at 10th level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Magic-Initiate with booming Blade and Green Flame Bade arethe most common feats I see on Rogues that are not an Arcane Trickster.</p><p></p><p>On a fighter is not very useful because you can't use it with extra attack (unless you are a bladesinger). So after level 5 it is extremely weak.</p><p></p><p></p><p>50% of the damage, but I am still waiting to hear what spells you are using to beat it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No it doesn't. Go read the spell.</p><p></p><p>It adds int damage to the 2nd target only.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>50% but whos counting?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Then you are not going to match 95% of the tankability of a fighter at that level, even with a higher AC. False is the only spell you have as a Wizard that can give you hit points and you will be losing them very quickly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because that is the idea. Melee you know .... what this whole discussion is about.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok. I have played this build A LOT. 95% of the leveled spells cast are one of the following:</p><p></p><p>Contingency(with a 5th level false life to trigger on low hit points)</p><p>Mage Armor</p><p>False Life</p><p>Haste</p><p>Blur</p><p>Absorb Elements</p><p>Shield</p><p>Protection from Evil and Good</p><p></p><p>There are a host of other situational spells to use too but these are the primary ones you are casting.</p><p></p><p>That is what he uses spell slots for, including high level slots. These spells will make you a BETTER tank than a fighter. Not equal, better. That is the whole thing you are trying to do with this build. It is the theme but it is NOT doing better in melee damage.</p><p></p><p>If you start using spells on other things you will generally not survive as long.</p><p></p><p>I think the difference between you and I is that I actually have played a hard melee Wizard at high levels and I know what you need to do to tank better in melee than a fighter or a Barbarian</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Please let me know what 2nd level Wizard spell can give you 27.5hps as a bonus action in combat.</p><p></p><p>The closest thing you have is False Life which needs to be upcast to 4th level to match this, or Wish which is a 9th level spell and is an action to cast.</p><p></p><p>Note I am not counting Tensor's Transformation in this because that will seriously screw up your ability to attack and also take down your other defenses.</p><p></p><p>Being able to stay above 0 hps is the key feature in being able to tank.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except your example was actually 50% of the damage and 2/3rds is not equal damage.</p><p></p><p>I want the build that is doing 95% of the tankability and equal damage at the same time and I don't want well I can do 2/3rds and have all these spells .... of course you can, you are a Wizard but that is not the same thing. What I want is the actual build that is doing both these things at the same time - more damage, 95% of tankability</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If the party is constantly healing you, especially in combat, then you are not doing your job as a tank. Any character can tank with a cleric on standby to heal him every time he goes down.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8978513, member: 7030563"] It gives the fighter a 20AC and is universally available as part of their class. You were talking abotu a fighter and an 18 AC, but why would you be playing such a character when you could easily have a 20 I said it would give a fighter a 20 or 21AC (not 17, not 18 which the numbers you were throwing around) while also doing twice as much damage in melee as the wizard cantrip numbers you posted. Literally twice as much. Who said it was equal to 3rd and 9th level spells? I never said that. 1 ASI is two more points. Morover when talking about melee the fighter is generally less MAD and can make strength and dexterity and constitution his three highest stats. It is more difficult to build a Wizard to do this Finally your whole arguement is the Wizard can easily have a 20 Dexterity. Doing that on point buy before level 12 means at most he has invested 2 points in intelligence OR taken 1 feat. In a discussion focused on both tanakability and DPR a Rune Knight is one of the better ones (Battlemaster is the best but the math for that is overwhelming). Being able to crit on an 18 adds less than 4DPR to the champion build. The Rune Knight has that beat by a mile because he makes one eitght of his attacks at advantage, gets an extra 1d10 damage per round (and he can float it to a different attack if he misses). On the tankability side the RK gets resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing as well as the ability to transfer an entire attack to someone else and restrain one enemy a short rest. Sure. But you did give the Wizard an intelligence bonus to his cantrip that he does not gdet as a class feature. Yes they can use dex in it. They have disadvantage on stealth checks, they do not have any penalties on any other dexterity checks, and disadvantage is not the same as auto failure. Or actually +3e more for plate and a shield/ I said possible, not available. Moreover it is going to take your max out dex Wizard 8 levels to get there, while investing more in an off-stat. The half proficiency to a bunch of skills is irrelevant in a discussion focused on melee damage and tankability only (as for that matter is access to 9th level spells if you don't use them for one of these things). What 7th level spell is going to give the Wizard more tankability or melee damage? Your arguement is this is important to doing these things, tell me what spell you are going to use for that (I know what I would use). Ok to start with Green Flame Blade does not add your intelligence modifier to the creature you attack with it. I have said this a few times now. The only ways to do that which I know of are to play school of Evocation-Evocation mastery or School of Bladesinging-Song of Victory. Second in the uncommon situation where there is a 2nd enemy next to the first you are doing 7d8+8 damage total, which is still substantially less than the champion fighter doing 4d8+28. Where do you get 2/3rds from? 4d8+5 is [B]23.9DPR[/B] A base fighter with no subclass is doing 4d8+28 is doing[B] 46.9DPR[/B], with dueling and no subclass (i.e. no crit on a 18). 23.9 is A LOT closer to 50% than it is to 2/3rds. It is 50% less. Instead of going on and on about these theoreticals post some actual spells with real numbers that are going to accomplish what you claim - 95% of the tankability and 100% or more of the melee damage simultaneously for the course of a day. That is exactly what I claimed from the begining. to be clear this is the closest Wizard I can come up with and a relatively weak fighter over a normal adventuring day and it is nowhere near the same, not even close. If you can beat it, then put up spells and numbers to do that. Ok. How is he going to use them to beat the fighter in melee damage while maintaining 95% of the tankability. WRONG. At 14th level being in Bladesong adds intelligence modifier to weapon attacks and I used that in the calculations I made. The Champion fighter you chose to use gets 2 fighting styles, one at 1st level , one at 10th level. Magic-Initiate with booming Blade and Green Flame Bade arethe most common feats I see on Rogues that are not an Arcane Trickster. On a fighter is not very useful because you can't use it with extra attack (unless you are a bladesinger). So after level 5 it is extremely weak. 50% of the damage, but I am still waiting to hear what spells you are using to beat it. No it doesn't. Go read the spell. It adds int damage to the 2nd target only. 50% but whos counting? Then you are not going to match 95% of the tankability of a fighter at that level, even with a higher AC. False is the only spell you have as a Wizard that can give you hit points and you will be losing them very quickly. Because that is the idea. Melee you know .... what this whole discussion is about. Ok. I have played this build A LOT. 95% of the leveled spells cast are one of the following: Contingency(with a 5th level false life to trigger on low hit points) Mage Armor False Life Haste Blur Absorb Elements Shield Protection from Evil and Good There are a host of other situational spells to use too but these are the primary ones you are casting. That is what he uses spell slots for, including high level slots. These spells will make you a BETTER tank than a fighter. Not equal, better. That is the whole thing you are trying to do with this build. It is the theme but it is NOT doing better in melee damage. If you start using spells on other things you will generally not survive as long. I think the difference between you and I is that I actually have played a hard melee Wizard at high levels and I know what you need to do to tank better in melee than a fighter or a Barbarian Please let me know what 2nd level Wizard spell can give you 27.5hps as a bonus action in combat. The closest thing you have is False Life which needs to be upcast to 4th level to match this, or Wish which is a 9th level spell and is an action to cast. Note I am not counting Tensor's Transformation in this because that will seriously screw up your ability to attack and also take down your other defenses. Being able to stay above 0 hps is the key feature in being able to tank. Except your example was actually 50% of the damage and 2/3rds is not equal damage. I want the build that is doing 95% of the tankability and equal damage at the same time and I don't want well I can do 2/3rds and have all these spells .... of course you can, you are a Wizard but that is not the same thing. What I want is the actual build that is doing both these things at the same time - more damage, 95% of tankability If the party is constantly healing you, especially in combat, then you are not doing your job as a tank. Any character can tank with a cleric on standby to heal him every time he goes down. [/QUOTE]
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