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Martials should just get free feats
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<blockquote data-quote="Cap'n Kobold" data-source="post: 8993963" data-attributes="member: 6802951"><p>So how many weeks of pre-adventuring career do you think it takes to gain full casting?</p><p></p><p></p><p>So like the way that the casting subclasses of Rogues and Fighters should match or only be slightly behind the dedicated spellcasting classes for casting spells?</p><p></p><p></p><p>No it wasn't.</p><p>You initially used it in the context of classes being able to "can't contribute in a meaningful fashion".</p><p>You did not specify "martial combat with weapons". As such, we are looking at actual class effectiveness in battle and contribution. <em>Not </em>artificially ignoring most of a classes' capability when drawing a comparison.</p><p>Such a comparison is just plain dishonest.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The issue there is that spellcasting is so powerful and dominant that a class with full spellcasting progression gains the greater part of their classes' capability from it.</p><p>To give Fighters full spellcasting would fundamentally change the <em>concept </em>of the "master of tactical martial combat" to be primarily a magic user. I think a lot of people like the fighter concept despite its mechanical implementation and changing that core concept would reduce its appeal.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Perfect balance being unattainable is not a reason to refuse to try to remove imbalance.</p><p>The fact that seatbelts don't prevent injury 100% of the time is not justification to give up and refuse to use them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I will repeat my question since it was evidently misunderstood: <em><strong>Can you give some examples in broad strokes?</strong></em></p><p>I even gave examples of broad strokes.</p><p>Saying that fighter gets Extra attack greater than 2 is trying to confuse the issue with technicalities: In broad strokes, both Paladins (getting extra damage on hits) and Blademasters (having one of those attacks scale with tier) give the same functional effect as the extra damage from having an extra attack for example.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed. I am sure that if wizards had the same number of options as fighters did, and of a similar power and capability, that this discussion would not be happening.</p><p>There are well over <em><strong>three hundred</strong>, <strong>official</strong></em>, spells available to wizards currently.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Citation needed. I've not seen much serious consideration of reducing other classes' current abilities in this thread.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The wizard is perfectly functional and can perform as well as anyone else. You are insistent on getting the same assistance as the less-well-off class because you don't <strong><em>want </em></strong>to use your class abilities, not because you don't have them.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Who </strong>is insisting there is no place for it please?</p><p>I'm pretty sure that I personally haven't suggested that there is no place for the current fighter.</p><p>In fact this thread is specifically for discussion amongst those who want to improve it <em>without </em>removing it or changing the core concept and mechanics of the Fighter.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So? Spells are just as much class features as armour proficiencies, extra attack etc. You cannot honestly compare performance between two classes without taking both classes' features into account.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cap'n Kobold, post: 8993963, member: 6802951"] So how many weeks of pre-adventuring career do you think it takes to gain full casting? So like the way that the casting subclasses of Rogues and Fighters should match or only be slightly behind the dedicated spellcasting classes for casting spells? No it wasn't. You initially used it in the context of classes being able to "can't contribute in a meaningful fashion". You did not specify "martial combat with weapons". As such, we are looking at actual class effectiveness in battle and contribution. [I]Not [/I]artificially ignoring most of a classes' capability when drawing a comparison. Such a comparison is just plain dishonest. The issue there is that spellcasting is so powerful and dominant that a class with full spellcasting progression gains the greater part of their classes' capability from it. To give Fighters full spellcasting would fundamentally change the [I]concept [/I]of the "master of tactical martial combat" to be primarily a magic user. I think a lot of people like the fighter concept despite its mechanical implementation and changing that core concept would reduce its appeal. Perfect balance being unattainable is not a reason to refuse to try to remove imbalance. The fact that seatbelts don't prevent injury 100% of the time is not justification to give up and refuse to use them. I will repeat my question since it was evidently misunderstood: [I][B]Can you give some examples in broad strokes?[/B][/I] I even gave examples of broad strokes. Saying that fighter gets Extra attack greater than 2 is trying to confuse the issue with technicalities: In broad strokes, both Paladins (getting extra damage on hits) and Blademasters (having one of those attacks scale with tier) give the same functional effect as the extra damage from having an extra attack for example. Indeed. I am sure that if wizards had the same number of options as fighters did, and of a similar power and capability, that this discussion would not be happening. There are well over [I][B]three hundred[/B], [B]official[/B][/I], spells available to wizards currently. Citation needed. I've not seen much serious consideration of reducing other classes' current abilities in this thread. The wizard is perfectly functional and can perform as well as anyone else. You are insistent on getting the same assistance as the less-well-off class because you don't [B][I]want [/I][/B]to use your class abilities, not because you don't have them. [B]Who [/B]is insisting there is no place for it please? I'm pretty sure that I personally haven't suggested that there is no place for the current fighter. In fact this thread is specifically for discussion amongst those who want to improve it [I]without [/I]removing it or changing the core concept and mechanics of the Fighter. So? Spells are just as much class features as armour proficiencies, extra attack etc. You cannot honestly compare performance between two classes without taking both classes' features into account. [/QUOTE]
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