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Martials should just get free feats
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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8996099" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>If the fighter subclass got full spell progression as I recommend above they would have nearly equivalent power in terms of spell casting.</p><p></p><p>When it comes to spell casting, if you took my recommendations above for the subclass here is what they would not have:</p><p></p><p>Spell preparation (they would have known spells instead)</p><p>Cantrips</p><p>Arcane Recovery</p><p>Ritual Casting</p><p>Spell Mastery</p><p>Signature Spells</p><p></p><p>They would have everything else a Wizard gets as a class WRT spell casting.</p><p></p><p>If you compare this to the "martial Wizard" who does not have:</p><p>Martial Weapon Proficiency</p><p>Fighting Style</p><p>Medium and Heavy Armor proficiency (admittedly this is not a big loss)</p><p>Fighter Extra Attack (admitedly they have the next best extra attack)</p><p>Second Wind</p><p>Indomitable</p><p>Action Surge</p><p>2 extra ASIs</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It already meets this requirement. Taking Fighter as a class is much more tempting than taking Wizard. While some people do not like the current fighter, a lot more of them like it than the current Wizard.</p><p></p><p>While my experiences are anecdotal, I have never seen anyone suggest that Wizard is chosen more often at their tables than fighter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree. I am okm with making a fighter broader, but I don't want it any deeper.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They should ALWAYS come close to matching a specialist. That is why Eldritch Knight shoudlget full caster progression.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The reverse is true. EK should be almost as capable as a Wizard (assuming you invest in intelligence, which is a compromise to your fighting potential). Not quite but almost. That is the big shortcoming in that subclass, but just because that subclass is flawed does not mean we should boost the fighter class.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are more than one way to calculate this though and things like martial weapon proficiency are difficult to quantify with hard numbers.</p><p></p><p>You can quantify the best martial weapon (Maul or Greatsword) vs the best bladesinger weapon (rapier). But that does not account for magic. If you find a Holy Avenger mace or for that matter even a magic finesse weapon when the Bladesinger chose Rapier as his weapon the fighter is going to have a huge advantage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They aren't perfectly matched when you consider the extra ASIs, the extra ability the Bladesinger must boost, the subclass abilities and the fact that the Bladesinger is only proficient in one single martial melee weapon.</p><p></p><p>At 20th level a Bladesinger using a Rapier is doing 5d8+20 in bladesong. So that is 43 DPR primary damage and it includes the damage from his subclass. Out of Bladesong it is 33 DPR</p><p></p><p>A 20th Fighter with a non-magic Greatsword is doing 8d6+20. That is 49 DPR and doesn't consider action surge, fighting style, the 4 extra ASIs he gets (the Wizard had to use 2 on intelligence) or subclass.</p><p></p><p>If those two are in the same party and happen to find a Vorpal Scimitar (would have been great for the Bladesinger if he had not chose Rapier) - Now the fighter is doing 5d6+32 without any subclass abilities and chopping off heads on a crit.</p><p></p><p>Also note, Eldritch Knight can do a similar trick to the bladesinger making an attack and a cantrip in the same turn, and can do it with better weapons than attacking with dex will allow.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you do not cast a defensive spell and upcast false life, a Wizard will get decimated in melee at high level. Not only does that use high level spell slots, more importantly it uses actions.</p><p></p><p>Cut the Wizards damage by 25% because he buffs himself the first turn of combat .... then boost the fighters by 10% because of action surge.</p><p></p><p>Extra attack with a cantrip does get you a ton, but less than a fighter gets at high level and it is also a subclass ability. Do you want to bring fighter subclasses into this discussion as well?</p><p></p><p>How much damage is a basic Wizard doing in melee without relying on his subclass?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Where is 4d12 coming from and how many hit points does the Wizard have?</p><p></p><p>A Bladesinger using a rapier and bladesinger extra attack at level 20 with max intelligence and max dexterity is doing 5d8+20 ... which ironically is more than 40.5 in bladesong (including crits).</p><p></p><p>The fighters damage does not include subclass or the FOUR extra feats he gets compared to that Wizard.</p><p></p><p>If you really want to do this comparison right give the fighter an AC, subclass and ASIs and hit points and then show me that total comparison .... or alternatively take the subclass away from the Wizard.</p><p></p><p>Although your numbers are flawed, I actually agree with the 75% being a rough approximation for a dedecated melee Wizard. I think that is about right for a Bladesinger Wizard who is hard core dedicated to being a melee character as compared with a basic melee Fighter with no subclass. Such a Wizard will not have the power outside of melee that other Wizards have though. They will have rituals and they will have cantrips but they won't have a lot of slots for much else unless they are willing to go below that 75% number. This is "balanced" by the fact that they are only 75% of a subclass-free fighter in combat and less once you consider a fighter's subclass.</p><p></p><p>A Bladesinger who wants to dabble in melee but still occasionally cast fear, synaptic static or forcecage won't come close to being 75% of a fighter in melee. At mid levels you don't have the slots to do that while still being able to melee well for 6 fights a day (half without bladesong). At high levels you will get hit even with your sky-high AC and you will need to burn through slots for False Life and song of defense to really keep up with the extra hit points and second wind that the fighter gets.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8996099, member: 7030563"] If the fighter subclass got full spell progression as I recommend above they would have nearly equivalent power in terms of spell casting. When it comes to spell casting, if you took my recommendations above for the subclass here is what they would not have: Spell preparation (they would have known spells instead) Cantrips Arcane Recovery Ritual Casting Spell Mastery Signature Spells They would have everything else a Wizard gets as a class WRT spell casting. If you compare this to the "martial Wizard" who does not have: Martial Weapon Proficiency Fighting Style Medium and Heavy Armor proficiency (admittedly this is not a big loss) Fighter Extra Attack (admitedly they have the next best extra attack) Second Wind Indomitable Action Surge 2 extra ASIs It already meets this requirement. Taking Fighter as a class is much more tempting than taking Wizard. While some people do not like the current fighter, a lot more of them like it than the current Wizard. While my experiences are anecdotal, I have never seen anyone suggest that Wizard is chosen more often at their tables than fighter. I disagree. I am okm with making a fighter broader, but I don't want it any deeper. They should ALWAYS come close to matching a specialist. That is why Eldritch Knight shoudlget full caster progression. The reverse is true. EK should be almost as capable as a Wizard (assuming you invest in intelligence, which is a compromise to your fighting potential). Not quite but almost. That is the big shortcoming in that subclass, but just because that subclass is flawed does not mean we should boost the fighter class. There are more than one way to calculate this though and things like martial weapon proficiency are difficult to quantify with hard numbers. You can quantify the best martial weapon (Maul or Greatsword) vs the best bladesinger weapon (rapier). But that does not account for magic. If you find a Holy Avenger mace or for that matter even a magic finesse weapon when the Bladesinger chose Rapier as his weapon the fighter is going to have a huge advantage. They aren't perfectly matched when you consider the extra ASIs, the extra ability the Bladesinger must boost, the subclass abilities and the fact that the Bladesinger is only proficient in one single martial melee weapon. At 20th level a Bladesinger using a Rapier is doing 5d8+20 in bladesong. So that is 43 DPR primary damage and it includes the damage from his subclass. Out of Bladesong it is 33 DPR A 20th Fighter with a non-magic Greatsword is doing 8d6+20. That is 49 DPR and doesn't consider action surge, fighting style, the 4 extra ASIs he gets (the Wizard had to use 2 on intelligence) or subclass. If those two are in the same party and happen to find a Vorpal Scimitar (would have been great for the Bladesinger if he had not chose Rapier) - Now the fighter is doing 5d6+32 without any subclass abilities and chopping off heads on a crit. Also note, Eldritch Knight can do a similar trick to the bladesinger making an attack and a cantrip in the same turn, and can do it with better weapons than attacking with dex will allow. If you do not cast a defensive spell and upcast false life, a Wizard will get decimated in melee at high level. Not only does that use high level spell slots, more importantly it uses actions. Cut the Wizards damage by 25% because he buffs himself the first turn of combat .... then boost the fighters by 10% because of action surge. Extra attack with a cantrip does get you a ton, but less than a fighter gets at high level and it is also a subclass ability. Do you want to bring fighter subclasses into this discussion as well? How much damage is a basic Wizard doing in melee without relying on his subclass? Where is 4d12 coming from and how many hit points does the Wizard have? A Bladesinger using a rapier and bladesinger extra attack at level 20 with max intelligence and max dexterity is doing 5d8+20 ... which ironically is more than 40.5 in bladesong (including crits). The fighters damage does not include subclass or the FOUR extra feats he gets compared to that Wizard. If you really want to do this comparison right give the fighter an AC, subclass and ASIs and hit points and then show me that total comparison .... or alternatively take the subclass away from the Wizard. Although your numbers are flawed, I actually agree with the 75% being a rough approximation for a dedecated melee Wizard. I think that is about right for a Bladesinger Wizard who is hard core dedicated to being a melee character as compared with a basic melee Fighter with no subclass. Such a Wizard will not have the power outside of melee that other Wizards have though. They will have rituals and they will have cantrips but they won't have a lot of slots for much else unless they are willing to go below that 75% number. This is "balanced" by the fact that they are only 75% of a subclass-free fighter in combat and less once you consider a fighter's subclass. A Bladesinger who wants to dabble in melee but still occasionally cast fear, synaptic static or forcecage won't come close to being 75% of a fighter in melee. At mid levels you don't have the slots to do that while still being able to melee well for 6 fights a day (half without bladesong). At high levels you will get hit even with your sky-high AC and you will need to burn through slots for False Life and song of defense to really keep up with the extra hit points and second wind that the fighter gets. [/QUOTE]
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