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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8997001" data-attributes="member: 7030563">The whole point of the fighter that doesn't cast spells is  that they do not want to cast spells.This is a cuircyular argumentv- I want to cast spells and be as powerful as a Wizard but I don't want to  cast spells.the Fighter baseline does not need to be any stronget in combat.  I could see some ribbons on skills or skills or something like that.No it isn't.  I have payed a bladesinger who  found in the same campaign found a scimitar of speed and a legendary shortsword but had no  proficiency because she took her proficiency in Rapier.  That kind  of sucked for her.No it isn't.  A fighting style  can give you battlemaster maneuvers, it can give you blindsight, oit can give you dueling which will outrun the extra damage from the bladesingers cantrip at most levels.Then why do you even want to play a fighter.No  it isn'tBut it  has  everything to do with survivng melee.  If the claim was the bladesinger could do 75% of the damage of a fighter that is different than the Bladesinger is 75% of a fighter.No but it has a lot to do with survivng melee because bladesong comes down if you are incapacitated, along  with Song of Defense and anything you are concentrating on.They already have 4 more than a Bladesinger who optimizes for melee.Yes way more tempting,  Far more people play fighters than Wizards.Show me where you have documented evidence they don't.I will say I like it better, that is one person!And that is all you have too!Yes, but your argument is people are not tempted to take fighter.  Right here you are admiting they are taking fighter despite  the class design.But what is relevant is  whether or not people play them.First off we don't have to give anything to the fighter and ivf we are going to give him something I still don't know why spells are a better choice than feats.finallyI would rather take things away from the Wizard than give feats to the ffighter.  Becuase  it is the whole idea of a subcvlass - to make you good at that theme.Absolutely there are.  1. Abberant Mind Sorcerers are a match for a base Wizards as spellcasters due to metamagic which makes their spells more powerful than a Wizards spells and their ability to select off-list spells while having full caster slot progressions.  2. Eloquence Bard is also as good a spell caster.  Magic Secrets gives him access to the best Wizard spells and Unsettling Words makes those spells more effective by worsening an enemies saves.  Now these examples are against a base-subclass fee Wizard.  A Wizard will have subcclass abilities and rituals to mae up a lot of ground, but as a caster and only looking at class these can hold their own.3.  A high-level Fey Wanderer Ranger is about as good of a control caster as a Wizard.  He lacks the high level spell slots, but Fey Reenforcements with Beguiling Twist generally along with a  ton of magical bonus actions generally makes up for the lack of higher level spells.  4., A Divine Soul Sorcerer, Celestial Warlock and at both BETTER healers than a Base Cleric at healing, not almost as good but better.  Druids, Rangers, Paladins are all about as good or better than a base cleric too.  If you count Magical Inspiration Bards are about as good as clerics too.You would actually have to take a healing-oriented subclass in Cleric to be aprreciably better than these.I don't think the fighter can be eclipsed in melee like a Cleric can be eclipsed in healing or a Wizard can be eclipsed in spell casting.The fighter is truely the best at what he does already.It actually almost always matters and Rapier is a ppor choice for a Bladesinger you are going to play to level 20.  While it is the best in the Whiteroom magic Scimitars and Shortswords are far more common.Name we one published WOTC adventure that has a great magic rapier as loot in it!  You need to have proficiency in what you find to  be effective.  This is one reason I started playing Drow when I played Bladesingers, because they actuallyhave most of the proficiencies you want already/You should never assume you will find a magic Rapier.  An ancient Red Dragon with a +17 attack will take down a 20th level Wizard with a 28 AC in 2 rounds doing 125 damage on average without breathing.  That assumes the Wizard wins initiative and has shield and bladesong.If the Dragon wins initiative (no bladsong) or breathes (absorb ellements) he has aboit a 50-50 chance of killing him in one single round.The fighter is usually going to get to attack, and if he doesn't he can use another actionOk.   That is not your highest damage option, but okNo it is 4 because to get the maximum damage the Wizard needs to spend 2 ASIs boosting Intelligence IN Addition to 2 boosting dexterity.The fighter effectively has 4 more ASIs to boost his melee capabilities.that is not the floor, because he has to cast defensive spells and there is turns he is doing 0.6d10 per short rest  is about 1d10 per round AND those are coming with a debuff often enabling more.Right and fewer groups take more than 6 fights a day so that is almost 1d10 every single round.  A Wizard who wants to melee as effectively as a fighter can't cast Synaptic Static or dawn.  To start with he is losing melee damage.  That 75% of a fighter is 0 this round.  iTo start with f the fighter attacks with his greatsword and the wizard casts SS the wizard did 0 melee damage that round, not 75% of the fighter.Second most of your 5th level slots are going to be spent onn False Life or Song of Defense if you want to do your 75% of the fighter.The point is to compare characters who are going into melee.The normal second level spell is blur if you want to melee consistently.Misty step is good to have, especially if you get swallowed by a purple worm or something, invisibility wastes an action.your 6th level slot is used for a 5th level false life.  7th, 8th and 9th level are normally used on song of defense.It could be 1000 damage, but when it comes to keeping up in melee you just lost a round worth of damage with your rapier and toll the dead to cast it.The comparison if a wizard that is 75% of a fighter in melee when he attacks -  If you are at your base 75% of fighter and in a 3-round battle you cast cone of cold and then melee twice and the fighter melees 4 times (using AS), you are LESS than 50% of the fighter in melee that battle.</blockquote>

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