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Martials should just get free feats
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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8997149" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>I did not make a mistake. Wizards are more powerful than fighters because they cast spells. That is what makes them more powerful-spells.</p><p></p><p>I have no problem with fighters who do not cast spells. But that is a choice and it is one that does and should garuntee you are playing a weaker class overall.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It did hurt more than it would have hurt such a fighter.</p><p></p><p>Focusing on great weapons or pole arm master will generally make you a weaker character at high levels unless yoour DM is going to put certain magic items to suit your playstye, however any magic melee weapon can be used with strength and a fighter gets proficiency in all of them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Assuming you play with feats yes .... but anyone can pick up spells too, and they can pick those up regardless of class even in a game without feats or multiclassing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I know. That is part of this. People should be allowed to choose a Wizard or a Sorcerer or any other class and be effective in martial combat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, you are missing something.</p><p></p><p>The numerical comparison is with a bladesinger doing 75% of fighter damage with the fighter investing in nothing except strength. To hit that number A Bladesinger needs a 20 dexterity and a 20 intelligence which is going to take 4 ASIs to accomplish on standard array. Less with great rolls, more than that with poor rolls. A fighter only needs 2 ASI to get a 20 strength. That leaves him two more plus the two extra he gets to invest in melee combat.</p><p></p><p>A 20th level Wizard has 5 ASIs, he needs to use 4 of those to maximize dexterity and intelligence to get the melee damage numbers noted. He has 1 feat left to play with.</p><p></p><p>A 20th level fighter has 7 ASIs, he needs 2 of them to boost strength to 20, leaving him 5 more for feats or improving his martial abilities in other ways (4 more than the Wizard).</p><p></p><p>There are a lot of assumptions that go into that - average rolls, identical rolls, both builds are optimizing for melee damage .... but if you are doing that and using the numbers for comparison the fighter has 4 more feats not accounted for (or more accurately the Wizard has 1 extra feat and the fighter has 5 extra f more)</p><p></p><p>This is in addition to also being able to invest more in Constitution and Wisdom at character creation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok but Fey Wanderer, Celestial Warlock and Divine Soul are in fact all subclasses.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No they won't. Moreover they won't survive if they try. Melee is about more than just damage</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes but the point is a fighter can find any one of 27 different magic melee weapons items and be effective. Some are better than others but all of them are going to work extremely well in the hands of any fighter who maxed strength and with martial versatility you can even change out your fighting style to match what you find.</p><p></p><p>A Bladesinger can use TWO effectively - a Dagger and whatever he chose at 2nd level (a Rapier if you use the damage numbers noted)</p><p></p><p>In a 1-20 campaign it is a safe bet you will find a magic melee weapon. It is not a safe bet you will find a magic Rapier.</p><p></p><p>Also lets keep in mind the numbers used to compare fighters and bladesingers did not use feats like GWM or PAM. Those numbers would have skewed it more heavily in favor of a fighter.</p><p></p><p>What would actually be best is to count the number of Rapiers available in pulished (I can't remember a single 1) compared to the number of other weaposn.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A fighter has 42 more hit points than a Wizard at 20th level, not including constitution bonuses. If they are both <u>optimized</u> for Melee and using Standard Array and a standard +1/+2 race the fighter would have started with a constitution 3 points higher (16 for a fighter, 13 for a Wizard), which gives her another 40 hit points for 82 more than a Wizard. She can regain 26hps using second wind, making the effective total of <strong>108 more </strong>and finally can use action surge the first two rounds to dodge, while still doing more damage in melee than the Wizard is doing.</p><p></p><p>This makes her substantially more survivable and will generally get her into round 3easily with average performance if the Dragon concentrates entirely on her.</p><p></p><p>Note the above does not include anything from her fighting style or the 4 extra feats she has compared to the wizard after they both maxed their damage stats (strength for the fighter, Intelligence and Dexterity for the Wizard). Start handing out feats to the fighter like tough, lucky, and constitution ASIs and she is way ahead of a Wizard in Bladesong.</p><p></p><p>A Wizard can match that survivability but they need to upcast false life ahead of time and get some defensive spells out to do it and their damage will suffer.</p><p></p><p>Note the above statement does not include anything from subclass, figthing style and does not include the 4 additional feats she has to spend after maxing her attack stat compared to the Wizard.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8997149, member: 7030563"] I did not make a mistake. Wizards are more powerful than fighters because they cast spells. That is what makes them more powerful-spells. I have no problem with fighters who do not cast spells. But that is a choice and it is one that does and should garuntee you are playing a weaker class overall. It did hurt more than it would have hurt such a fighter. Focusing on great weapons or pole arm master will generally make you a weaker character at high levels unless yoour DM is going to put certain magic items to suit your playstye, however any magic melee weapon can be used with strength and a fighter gets proficiency in all of them. Assuming you play with feats yes .... but anyone can pick up spells too, and they can pick those up regardless of class even in a game without feats or multiclassing. I know. That is part of this. People should be allowed to choose a Wizard or a Sorcerer or any other class and be effective in martial combat. Yes, you are missing something. The numerical comparison is with a bladesinger doing 75% of fighter damage with the fighter investing in nothing except strength. To hit that number A Bladesinger needs a 20 dexterity and a 20 intelligence which is going to take 4 ASIs to accomplish on standard array. Less with great rolls, more than that with poor rolls. A fighter only needs 2 ASI to get a 20 strength. That leaves him two more plus the two extra he gets to invest in melee combat. A 20th level Wizard has 5 ASIs, he needs to use 4 of those to maximize dexterity and intelligence to get the melee damage numbers noted. He has 1 feat left to play with. A 20th level fighter has 7 ASIs, he needs 2 of them to boost strength to 20, leaving him 5 more for feats or improving his martial abilities in other ways (4 more than the Wizard). There are a lot of assumptions that go into that - average rolls, identical rolls, both builds are optimizing for melee damage .... but if you are doing that and using the numbers for comparison the fighter has 4 more feats not accounted for (or more accurately the Wizard has 1 extra feat and the fighter has 5 extra f more) This is in addition to also being able to invest more in Constitution and Wisdom at character creation. Ok but Fey Wanderer, Celestial Warlock and Divine Soul are in fact all subclasses. No they won't. Moreover they won't survive if they try. Melee is about more than just damage Yes but the point is a fighter can find any one of 27 different magic melee weapons items and be effective. Some are better than others but all of them are going to work extremely well in the hands of any fighter who maxed strength and with martial versatility you can even change out your fighting style to match what you find. A Bladesinger can use TWO effectively - a Dagger and whatever he chose at 2nd level (a Rapier if you use the damage numbers noted) In a 1-20 campaign it is a safe bet you will find a magic melee weapon. It is not a safe bet you will find a magic Rapier. Also lets keep in mind the numbers used to compare fighters and bladesingers did not use feats like GWM or PAM. Those numbers would have skewed it more heavily in favor of a fighter. What would actually be best is to count the number of Rapiers available in pulished (I can't remember a single 1) compared to the number of other weaposn. A fighter has 42 more hit points than a Wizard at 20th level, not including constitution bonuses. If they are both [U]optimized[/U] for Melee and using Standard Array and a standard +1/+2 race the fighter would have started with a constitution 3 points higher (16 for a fighter, 13 for a Wizard), which gives her another 40 hit points for 82 more than a Wizard. She can regain 26hps using second wind, making the effective total of [B]108 more [/B]and finally can use action surge the first two rounds to dodge, while still doing more damage in melee than the Wizard is doing. This makes her substantially more survivable and will generally get her into round 3easily with average performance if the Dragon concentrates entirely on her. Note the above does not include anything from her fighting style or the 4 extra feats she has compared to the wizard after they both maxed their damage stats (strength for the fighter, Intelligence and Dexterity for the Wizard). Start handing out feats to the fighter like tough, lucky, and constitution ASIs and she is way ahead of a Wizard in Bladesong. A Wizard can match that survivability but they need to upcast false life ahead of time and get some defensive spells out to do it and their damage will suffer. Note the above statement does not include anything from subclass, figthing style and does not include the 4 additional feats she has to spend after maxing her attack stat compared to the Wizard. [/QUOTE]
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