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<blockquote data-quote="Thrudjelmer" data-source="post: 1521342" data-attributes="member: 19060"><p>My calculations were based on maximum load, not a heavy load... which means , stagger or not, you've got venom listed as being able to pick up 358.4 tons (unless a ton is no longer 2000 pounds). But still, even looking at the heavy load column, 179.2 tons is still significantly beyond what Venom should have. If you look at the old MSH system, they gave him a strength score of Amazing, which translates into about a 50 ton limit (and if he makes a Red Strength FEAT to lift something to get the +1 column shift up to Monstrous, that'd enable him to lift around 75 tons max). So, you've assigned him a Strength that with only a heavy load more than doubles the established maximum lift in the old source (MSH's FASERIP).</p><p></p><p>Again with Spiderman, a 19.2 ton heavy load is too much. That number should be about his maximum lifting capacity... not his heavy load. Also, if you take away Spiderman's powers, he wouldn't revert to his original scrawny weakling self; I acknowledged as much. If a 20 Strength is the human maximum, how can you think only 2 points lower wouldn't still be a hulking brute of an ordinary human? Yes, I know some people possess a deceptive strength the belies their size, but it wouldn't be so out of proportion that just a well-toned looking person could rival professional weight lifters. You need the bulk of added muscle mass to support that kind of strength.</p><p></p><p>As for the super soldier serum, you say its not just Willpower, it is also cunning, guile, common sense and greater ability to assimilate the information your senses are giving you. I might agree that an enhanced physical condition does improve one's senses somewhat, but I wouldn't go so far as to assign Super-Wisdom to represent that. Cap's cunning, guile, and common sense came from lots of training <em>after</em> he underwent the super soldier process. As for the Black Crow's magic, it was as you describe it... he gave Cap the mental fortitude to overcome the physical effects of the poison. However, this wasn't a one-time deal; it became a permanent effect. TSR acknowledged this much when they boosted his original Psyche score of Good to Amazing in later products. The serum itself boosted only physical attributes; it did not noticably alter one's perceptions or strength of will... the point of Captain America is that he isn't defined by the super soldier serum, it was only a starting point. Other's have used the serum, gaining the physical attributes... but they always lacked his intensive training and years of experience which would account for his cunning and guile, and --after Black Crow-- his willpower.</p><p></p><p>As for the serum's effects as a device, I understand reproducing the serum as a device that could be applied to others... but its not exactly a potion that one drinks and *<em>WHAM</em>* the imbiber is strong. It was multiple parts that, when all come together properly, permanently alter the target. It is no different than the effect of Spider-man's radioactive spider-bite in that it is just an initial source to explain the powers, and not something that needs to be done on a regular basis to activate or maintain the powers --which would be more in line with the Device flaw. Yes, the serum was temporarily removed as a result of a complete blood transfusion causing a loss of Cap's greater stamina... but so what? Hasn't nearly every other Marvel super hero lost their powers at some time? The Thing has been turned into his old human self at times, should we consider the cosmic rays that gave the Fantastic Four their powers a device? Should Spidey's blood be considered a device? What about Pym particles which grant the Wasp, Giant-man, and Ant-man their size-altering powers? As a matter of opinion, no... anything that has a permanent effect (even some magic potion) should not be considered a device after consumed and its bestowed powers become a permanent part of the recipient.</p><p></p><p>As for my criticism as a whole... What? I'm not qualified to criticize on your creations unless I provide something for others, but just anyone who's happy with your over-powered conversions is free to compliment and thank you? Just because you haven't seen anything I've done for others (none of which has been for the Mutants & Masterminds system yet), does not mean I haven't spent any time with super hero conversions or an inordinate amount of time just reading comics and being familiar enough with the content to point out where someone else has erred. Or maybe you mean that once I've made my own efforts available for you (or others) to likewise turn to and tear apart in retaliation for my comments here, that I won't understand what its like to make an effort only to have it criticized by any old schmuck.</p><p></p><p>There is nothing wrong with my position to pass comment. I may be still learning all the ins and outs of the M&M system, but that does not disqualify me from having an opinion or from pointing out where someone else (such as yourself) is clearly wrong about something.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Thrudjelmer, post: 1521342, member: 19060"] My calculations were based on maximum load, not a heavy load... which means , stagger or not, you've got venom listed as being able to pick up 358.4 tons (unless a ton is no longer 2000 pounds). But still, even looking at the heavy load column, 179.2 tons is still significantly beyond what Venom should have. If you look at the old MSH system, they gave him a strength score of Amazing, which translates into about a 50 ton limit (and if he makes a Red Strength FEAT to lift something to get the +1 column shift up to Monstrous, that'd enable him to lift around 75 tons max). So, you've assigned him a Strength that with only a heavy load more than doubles the established maximum lift in the old source (MSH's FASERIP). Again with Spiderman, a 19.2 ton heavy load is too much. That number should be about his maximum lifting capacity... not his heavy load. Also, if you take away Spiderman's powers, he wouldn't revert to his original scrawny weakling self; I acknowledged as much. If a 20 Strength is the human maximum, how can you think only 2 points lower wouldn't still be a hulking brute of an ordinary human? Yes, I know some people possess a deceptive strength the belies their size, but it wouldn't be so out of proportion that just a well-toned looking person could rival professional weight lifters. You need the bulk of added muscle mass to support that kind of strength. As for the super soldier serum, you say its not just Willpower, it is also cunning, guile, common sense and greater ability to assimilate the information your senses are giving you. I might agree that an enhanced physical condition does improve one's senses somewhat, but I wouldn't go so far as to assign Super-Wisdom to represent that. Cap's cunning, guile, and common sense came from lots of training [i]after[/i] he underwent the super soldier process. As for the Black Crow's magic, it was as you describe it... he gave Cap the mental fortitude to overcome the physical effects of the poison. However, this wasn't a one-time deal; it became a permanent effect. TSR acknowledged this much when they boosted his original Psyche score of Good to Amazing in later products. The serum itself boosted only physical attributes; it did not noticably alter one's perceptions or strength of will... the point of Captain America is that he isn't defined by the super soldier serum, it was only a starting point. Other's have used the serum, gaining the physical attributes... but they always lacked his intensive training and years of experience which would account for his cunning and guile, and --after Black Crow-- his willpower. As for the serum's effects as a device, I understand reproducing the serum as a device that could be applied to others... but its not exactly a potion that one drinks and *[i]WHAM[/i]* the imbiber is strong. It was multiple parts that, when all come together properly, permanently alter the target. It is no different than the effect of Spider-man's radioactive spider-bite in that it is just an initial source to explain the powers, and not something that needs to be done on a regular basis to activate or maintain the powers --which would be more in line with the Device flaw. Yes, the serum was temporarily removed as a result of a complete blood transfusion causing a loss of Cap's greater stamina... but so what? Hasn't nearly every other Marvel super hero lost their powers at some time? The Thing has been turned into his old human self at times, should we consider the cosmic rays that gave the Fantastic Four their powers a device? Should Spidey's blood be considered a device? What about Pym particles which grant the Wasp, Giant-man, and Ant-man their size-altering powers? As a matter of opinion, no... anything that has a permanent effect (even some magic potion) should not be considered a device after consumed and its bestowed powers become a permanent part of the recipient. As for my criticism as a whole... What? I'm not qualified to criticize on your creations unless I provide something for others, but just anyone who's happy with your over-powered conversions is free to compliment and thank you? Just because you haven't seen anything I've done for others (none of which has been for the Mutants & Masterminds system yet), does not mean I haven't spent any time with super hero conversions or an inordinate amount of time just reading comics and being familiar enough with the content to point out where someone else has erred. Or maybe you mean that once I've made my own efforts available for you (or others) to likewise turn to and tear apart in retaliation for my comments here, that I won't understand what its like to make an effort only to have it criticized by any old schmuck. There is nothing wrong with my position to pass comment. I may be still learning all the ins and outs of the M&M system, but that does not disqualify me from having an opinion or from pointing out where someone else (such as yourself) is clearly wrong about something. [/QUOTE]
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