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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Vuron" data-source="post: 4848033" data-attributes="member: 14">IMHO Elminster was initially envisioned as a powerful, extremely well-connected magic-user who is a bit of a meddler and deus ex machinae but much less powerful than he appeared in later fiction.In the original greybox he was definitely a powerful wizard who was a decent match for Manshoon (the assumed primary antagonist for dalelands campaigns). However he was mainly useful as a resource for adventurers in that area. Sage Knowledge + wizard tower made for a good source of plothooks. Much like Gandalf it was assumed that if he was influencing events it was by subtly encouraging PCs to take up arms against the Zhents and defend the Dales and Cormyr.Later on in Halls of Heroes, Elminster got a significant powerup (interesting enough Ed was not a writer on that book - I choose to blame Jeff Grubb who seems to have pushed a more superhero status for Elminster early on). He got some interesting abilities (including Psionics - not seen on him since). Spellfire which came out about this time saw Elminster as powerful (and certainly a bit of a deus ex machinae) but beside indicating that Ed was not the greatest writer (although I kinda enjoyed this book), I didn't think it was exceptionally egregious as a Marty Sue. Shandril was much closer to a mary sue with exceptional abilities (in no way supported by the ruleset) that made her death to wizards.I think the tide really shifted around the development of 2e and the decision to make Elminster and Driz'zt the signature characters of the setting. Troy Denning wrote the horrible Avatar trilogy which definitely amps up Elminster (although in comparison to the Marty Sues of Cyric and Kelemvor and the Mary Sue of Midnight Elminster is pretty much tame).Elminster and Drizzt continued their too cool for rules status and I think this is about the time that TSR books editorial staff made the decision to push stories from Elminster's perspective rather than stories built around the Knights of Myth Drannor (which I gather is what Ed would've prefered). I assume that Ed wanting to keep writing decided to go along with the TSR preference and keep writing uber Elminster stories.The wizards three bits in Dragon were also a reflection of this. The Forgotten Realms was the cash cow so Elminster gets first billing, Mordekainen gets second billing (maybe as a slight to EGG- who knows), and Dalamar as second fiddle to Raistlin gets third billing. Further as the "good" wizard, it seems that the TSR Standards group were more comfortably pushing Elminster as a good wizard instead of Dalamar's "evil" or Mordekainen's active neutrality.However that there were reasons for Elminster becoming a marty stu does not condone that course of events. Ed could've toned down the rules breaking badassitude of the character (as could Salvatore) and he chose not to. Combined with Ed's liberal opinions towards sexual relations in the realms and Elminster became a overly powerful lecher. This negative impact has been magnified by countless Forgotten Realms DMs using Elminster as a godawful DMPC. Hell I know I used him as such way back in the day.But honestly EGG's Gord was similarly overpowered and rules breaking (son of the catlord my ass). I can only assume that stories featuring Mordekainen would've unfortunately resembled Elminster stories (although I prefer high gygaxian to high greenwoodian).</blockquote>

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