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<blockquote data-quote="Axiomatic Unicorn" data-source="post: 117245" data-attributes="member: 1974">Fine.&nbsp; I have never disputed that initimdate is about fear.&nbsp; But it goes beyond that.&nbsp; Definition 2 above applies best.&nbsp; The key words there are &quot;coerce or inhibit&quot;.&nbsp; Influencing the other person's behavior without actually harming them.&nbsp;&nbsp; The PH definition of Charisma includes: &quot;Checks that represent an attempt to influence others.&quot;&nbsp; Doesn't defintion 2 above fit squarely within this?Fear is the tool, the Intimidate skill is your skill with using that tool to make people do what you want.&nbsp; I asked before, what about the wizard, he demonstrates his magic powers and then says he is going to set you on fire.&nbsp; Is that not scary?&nbsp; Why does he get less ability to intimidate people than the big guy?&nbsp; In D&amp;D, where every class has its own way of making bad things happen to people who get in their way, why does STR alone count as &quot;scary&quot;.&nbsp; It should not, and because the designers get that, in the core rules it does not.I mentioned the wizard before.&nbsp; But no one responded to it.&nbsp; I am guessing that is because it blows a ten foot hole through the logic of using STR in place of CHR.And what about big opponents.&nbsp; Is a Storm Giant simply immune to intimidate?&nbsp; The (high level) rogue or bard should still have a chance to intimidate him through knowing or guessing what the Storm Giant would be afraid to have happen.&nbsp; The half-orc can bend steel bars all day, who cares.Lastly, assuming STR will always cause fear is very narrow-sighted.&nbsp; I still say that the Tyson example works well for me.&nbsp; Very few people in the real world are at all scared of him, because they now that he can't actually do anything to them.&nbsp; If his STR does such a great job of replacing CHR, why did he go to jail?&nbsp; And why is he not allowed to box right now?&nbsp; Same in D&amp;D.&nbsp; Crusher the half-orc pounds his fist together and demands the L1 commoner tell him where the map is, or else!!!&nbsp; The commoner pales.&nbsp; Quickly he looks around at the gathering crowd, &quot;Quick someone, go get Sherrif Jones.&quot;&nbsp; A couple guys scamper off from the crowd.&nbsp; Slick the rogue steps up and calmly puts his hand on Crusher's chest.&nbsp; &quot;I got it, Crusher.&nbsp; No problem here people.&quot; As Crusher angrily steps back Slick leans over and whispers in the commoner's ear.&nbsp; Dropping his head the commoner says, &quot;Follow me.&quot;I am not saying that STR can not give circumstance modifiers, I already said it should.&nbsp; But in a Lawful Good village with an effective town guard, it should probably be +0.&nbsp; In most circumstances, +2 as CRGreathouse recommended.&nbsp; You get a normal kobold alone in a cave, +10 or more easy, but I probably would not even require a check then.&nbsp; The point being that the relevance of strength on intimidation is highly variable.&nbsp; But the ability to influence people will always be important.&nbsp; So charisma should always be the key ability.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Axiomatic Unicorn, post: 117245, member: 1974"] Fine. I have never disputed that initimdate is about fear. But it goes beyond that. Definition 2 above applies best. The key words there are "coerce or inhibit". Influencing the other person's behavior without actually harming them. The PH definition of Charisma includes: "Checks that represent an attempt to influence others." Doesn't defintion 2 above fit squarely within this? Fear is the tool, the Intimidate skill is your skill with using that tool to make people do what you want. I asked before, what about the wizard, he demonstrates his magic powers and then says he is going to set you on fire. Is that not scary? Why does he get less ability to intimidate people than the big guy? In D&D, where every class has its own way of making bad things happen to people who get in their way, why does STR alone count as "scary". It should not, and because the designers get that, in the core rules it does not. I mentioned the wizard before. But no one responded to it. I am guessing that is because it blows a ten foot hole through the logic of using STR in place of CHR. And what about big opponents. Is a Storm Giant simply immune to intimidate? The (high level) rogue or bard should still have a chance to intimidate him through knowing or guessing what the Storm Giant would be afraid to have happen. The half-orc can bend steel bars all day, who cares. Lastly, assuming STR will always cause fear is very narrow-sighted. I still say that the Tyson example works well for me. Very few people in the real world are at all scared of him, because they now that he can't actually do anything to them. If his STR does such a great job of replacing CHR, why did he go to jail? And why is he not allowed to box right now? Same in D&D. Crusher the half-orc pounds his fist together and demands the L1 commoner tell him where the map is, or else!!! The commoner pales. Quickly he looks around at the gathering crowd, "Quick someone, go get Sherrif Jones." A couple guys scamper off from the crowd. Slick the rogue steps up and calmly puts his hand on Crusher's chest. "I got it, Crusher. No problem here people." As Crusher angrily steps back Slick leans over and whispers in the commoner's ear. Dropping his head the commoner says, "Follow me." I am not saying that STR can not give circumstance modifiers, I already said it should. But in a Lawful Good village with an effective town guard, it should probably be +0. In most circumstances, +2 as CRGreathouse recommended. You get a normal kobold alone in a cave, +10 or more easy, but I probably would not even require a check then. The point being that the relevance of strength on intimidation is highly variable. But the ability to influence people will always be important. So charisma should always be the key ability. [/QUOTE]

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