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<blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 4736478" data-attributes="member: 9789">The math behind what to give out in items/treasure for starting PCs above level 1 has always seemed a bit odd to me.&nbsp; Specifically, it generally feels a bit low.&nbsp; Additionally, it's clearly broken for very low levels - you can't really use it to start someone at level 2, or they'd be much richer than they should be.&nbsp; Well, I finally decided to just find out exactly what the math really is.First, I decided to establish what I considered a &quot;baseline.&quot;&nbsp; This is the total amount of money given at each level including all parcels, then averaged over the total party members.&nbsp; While this isn't really practical in a real-world setting, since realistically you'll get several items of various levels over the course of the game and practically no DM will be a perfect arbiter of loot distribution, it does help set a sort of standard for about where everyone should be if everything was distributed perfectly.Here is a listing for 5 party members of the total loot gained at each level along with what each party member receives on average (i.e. the total divided by 5) and the sum of all loot per party member at that level.&nbsp; I have ignored the starting 100 gold for all calculations.[sblock][code]level&nbsp; &nbsp; 5 PCs total&nbsp; &nbsp; each / lvl&nbsp; &nbsp; each total1&nbsp; &nbsp; 3760&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 752&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7522&nbsp; &nbsp; 5360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1072&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18243&nbsp; &nbsp; 7600&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1520&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 33444&nbsp; &nbsp; 10480&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2096&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 54405&nbsp; &nbsp; 14000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2800&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 82406&nbsp; &nbsp; 18800&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3760&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 120007&nbsp; &nbsp; 26800&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 173608&nbsp; &nbsp; 38000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7600&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 249609&nbsp; &nbsp; 52400&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10480&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3544010&nbsp; &nbsp; 70000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4944011&nbsp; &nbsp; 94000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18800&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6824012&nbsp; &nbsp; 134000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 26800&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9504013&nbsp; &nbsp; 190000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 38000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13304014&nbsp; &nbsp; 262000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 52400&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18544015&nbsp; &nbsp; 350000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 70000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 25544016&nbsp; &nbsp; 470000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 94000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 34944017&nbsp; &nbsp; 670000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 134000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 48344018&nbsp; &nbsp; 950000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 190000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 67344019&nbsp; &nbsp; 1310000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 262000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93544020&nbsp; &nbsp; 1750000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 350000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 128544021&nbsp; &nbsp; 2350000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 470000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 175544022&nbsp; &nbsp; 3350000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 670000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242544023&nbsp; &nbsp; 4750000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 950000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 337544024&nbsp; &nbsp; 6550000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1310000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 468544025&nbsp; &nbsp; 8750000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1750000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 643544026&nbsp; &nbsp; 11750000&nbsp; &nbsp; 2350000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 878544027&nbsp; &nbsp; 14250000&nbsp; &nbsp; 2850000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1163544028&nbsp; &nbsp; 16250000&nbsp; &nbsp; 3250000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1488544029&nbsp; &nbsp; 17750000&nbsp; &nbsp; 3550000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1843544030&nbsp; &nbsp; 21875000&nbsp; &nbsp; 4375000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 22810440[/code][/sblock]Not too surprising, right?&nbsp; Well, except that yes, that is 22.8 million gold you're expected to acquire over the course of 30 levels - not too shabby.&nbsp; And a good chart to reference all the same.&nbsp; The next thing I did just for comparison was to find the same values for 6-PC parties and 4-PC parties just to double check.[sblock][code]level&nbsp; &nbsp; 6PCs total&nbsp; &nbsp; each / lvl&nbsp; &nbsp; each total&nbsp; &nbsp; % diff&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4PCs total&nbsp; &nbsp; each / lvl&nbsp; &nbsp; each total&nbsp; &nbsp; % diff1&nbsp; &nbsp; 4440&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 740&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 740&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 98.40%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3080&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 770&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 770&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 102.39%2&nbsp; &nbsp; 6040&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1006.67&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1746.67&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 95.76%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4520&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1130&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1900&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.17%3&nbsp; &nbsp; 8280&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1380&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3126.67&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93.50%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6600&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1650&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3550&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 106.16%4&nbsp; &nbsp; 11800&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1966.67&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5093.33&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93.63%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8680&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2170&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5720&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 105.15%5&nbsp; &nbsp; 15960&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2660&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7753.33&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 94.09%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 11400&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2850&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8570&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.00%6&nbsp; &nbsp; 20760&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3460&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 11213.33&nbsp; &nbsp; 93.44%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 15400&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3850&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 12420&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 103.50%7&nbsp; &nbsp; 28760&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4793.33&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16006.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 92.20%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 22600&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5650&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18070&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.09%8&nbsp; &nbsp; 39960&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6660&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 22666.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 90.81%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 33000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 26320&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 105.45%9&nbsp; &nbsp; 57560&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9593.33&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 32260&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 91.03%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 43400&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10850&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 37170&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.88%10&nbsp; &nbsp; 78360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 45320&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 91.67%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 57000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 51420&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.00%11&nbsp; &nbsp; 102360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 17060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 62380&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 91.41%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 77000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 19250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 70670&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 103.56%12&nbsp; &nbsp; 142360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 23726.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 86106.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 90.60%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 113000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 28250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 98920&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.08%13&nbsp; &nbsp; 198360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 33060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 119166.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 89.57%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 165000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 41250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 140170&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 105.36%14&nbsp; &nbsp; 286360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 47726.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 166893.33&nbsp; &nbsp; 90.00%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 217000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 54250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 194420&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.84%15&nbsp; &nbsp; 390360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 65060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 231953.33&nbsp; &nbsp; 90.81%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 285000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 71250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 265670&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.00%16&nbsp; &nbsp; 510360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 85060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 317013.33&nbsp; &nbsp; 90.72%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 385000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 96250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 361920&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 103.57%17&nbsp; &nbsp; 710360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 118393.33&nbsp; &nbsp; 435406.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 90.06%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 565000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 141250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 503170&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.08%18&nbsp; &nbsp; 990360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 165060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 600466.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 89.16%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 825000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 206250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 709420&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 105.34%19&nbsp; &nbsp; 1430360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 238393.33&nbsp; &nbsp; 838860&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 89.68%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1085000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 271250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 980670&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.84%20&nbsp; &nbsp; 1950360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 325060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1163920&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 90.55%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1425000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 356250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1336920&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.00%21&nbsp; &nbsp; 2550360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 425060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1588980&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 90.52%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1925000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 481250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1818170&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 103.57%22&nbsp; &nbsp; 3550360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 591726.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 2180706.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 89.91%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2825000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 706250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2524420&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.08%23&nbsp; &nbsp; 4950360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 825060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3005766.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 89.05%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4125000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1031250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3555670&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 105.34%24&nbsp; &nbsp; 7150360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1191726.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 4197493.33&nbsp; &nbsp; 89.59%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5425000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1356250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4911920&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.83%25&nbsp; &nbsp; 9750360&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1625060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5822553.33&nbsp; &nbsp; 90.48%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7125000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1781250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6693170&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 104.00%26&nbsp; &nbsp; 12750360&nbsp; &nbsp; 2125060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7947613.33&nbsp; &nbsp; 90.46%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9625000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2406250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9099420&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 103.57%27&nbsp; &nbsp; 15250360&nbsp; &nbsp; 2541726.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 10489340&nbsp; &nbsp; 90.15%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 11625000&nbsp; &nbsp; 2906250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 12005670&nbsp; &nbsp; 103.18%28&nbsp; &nbsp; 17250360&nbsp; &nbsp; 2875060&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13364400&nbsp; &nbsp; 89.78%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13125000&nbsp; &nbsp; 3281250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 15286920&nbsp; &nbsp; 102.70%29&nbsp; &nbsp; 18250360&nbsp; &nbsp; 3041726.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 16406126.67&nbsp; &nbsp; 88.99%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14625000&nbsp; &nbsp; 3656250&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18943170&nbsp; &nbsp; 102.75%30&nbsp; &nbsp; 21875360&nbsp; &nbsp; 3645893.33&nbsp; &nbsp; 20052020&nbsp; &nbsp; 87.91%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18750000&nbsp; &nbsp; 4687500&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 23630670&nbsp; &nbsp; 103.60%[/code][/sblock]So parties with 6 PCs get somewhere around 10% less total loot, and parties with 4 PCs get somewhere around 5% more.&nbsp; Does this make sense?&nbsp; Parties with more characters may be slightly stronger and those with only 4 slightly weaker against same-level encounters...&nbsp; Except that's supposed to be handled with monster XP budgets...&nbsp; Presumably more PCs end up using less consumables?&nbsp; Anyway, it was interesting, and probably mostly a product of coming up with a good metric and making it &quot;as close as we can get.&quot;&nbsp; However, I took away from this that giving out slightly too much treasure to a 6 PC campaign is probably a good idea.Then I went further to show what the DMG standard n+1, n, n-1, and gold = n-1 metric equated to for each level.[sblock][code]str lvl&nbsp; &nbsp; DMG tot&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; %1&nbsp; &nbsp; 100&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 1920&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 255.32%3&nbsp; &nbsp; 2560&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 140.35%4&nbsp; &nbsp; 3200&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 95.69%5&nbsp; &nbsp; 4480&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 82.35%6&nbsp; &nbsp; 6400&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 77.67%7&nbsp; &nbsp; 9600&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 80.00%8&nbsp; &nbsp; 12800&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 73.73%9&nbsp; &nbsp; 16000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 64.10%10&nbsp; &nbsp; 22400&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 63.21%11&nbsp; &nbsp; 32000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 64.72%12&nbsp; &nbsp; 48000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 70.34%13&nbsp; &nbsp; 64000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 67.34%14&nbsp; &nbsp; 80000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 60.13%15&nbsp; &nbsp; 112000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 60.40%16&nbsp; &nbsp; 160000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 62.64%17&nbsp; &nbsp; 240000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 68.68%18&nbsp; &nbsp; 320000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 66.19%19&nbsp; &nbsp; 400000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 59.40%20&nbsp; &nbsp; 560000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 59.86%21&nbsp; &nbsp; 800000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 62.24%22&nbsp; &nbsp; 1200000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 68.36%23&nbsp; &nbsp; 1600000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 65.97%24&nbsp; &nbsp; 2000000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 59.25%25&nbsp; &nbsp; 2800000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 59.76%26&nbsp; &nbsp; 4000000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 62.16%27&nbsp; &nbsp; 6000000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 68.29%28&nbsp; &nbsp; 8000000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 68.76%29&nbsp; &nbsp; 10000000&nbsp; &nbsp; 67.18%30&nbsp; &nbsp; 11500000&nbsp; &nbsp; 62.38%[/code][/sblock]Ah, now that is interesting - and it proves me right!&nbsp; Levels 2 and 3 start far above the norm, but starting at level 9 and above means you're in the 60-70% range, for an average of 64.15%!&nbsp; Again, this is quite a drop off:&nbsp; 35% of your total wealth gone, presumably spent on consumables or traded down items or what have you.&nbsp; Or maybe just to make their metric work well.&nbsp; Whatever.&nbsp; But the idea that this seems &quot;low&quot; got reinforced for me.&nbsp; And it also let me know that the best level to start a campaign loot-wise following these guidelines is 8 or earlier, and then 12, 17, 22, and 27 or 28.&nbsp; So if you're starting that paragon tier campaign, why not start at 12 instead of 11?&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; (Also worth noting:&nbsp; there is no &quot;n+1&quot; value for level 30, so I used a level 30 item value instead.&nbsp; If you use double that item value - two level 30 items - it jumps to 79.33%.)So, what do you do about it?&nbsp; Well, like any DM I immediately tried to think of how I could &quot;fix&quot; this by doing it differently...&nbsp; Perhaps another, similar metric that is just as easy to remember?&nbsp; I experimented with a few numbers, finding one that I liked the best that wasn't too far from the original:&nbsp; n+1, n, n-1, n-1, n-2, and gold = n-1.&nbsp; This seemed promising because it just adds an n-1 and n-2 item to the original formula.[sblock][code]str lvl&nbsp; &nbsp; DMG tot&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; %1&nbsp; &nbsp; 100&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 3440&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 188.60%4&nbsp; &nbsp; 4400&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 131.58%5&nbsp; &nbsp; 6000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 110.29%6&nbsp; &nbsp; 8240&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 100.00%7&nbsp; &nbsp; 12400&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 103.33%8&nbsp; &nbsp; 17200&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 99.08%9&nbsp; &nbsp; 22000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 88.14%10&nbsp; &nbsp; 30000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 84.65%11&nbsp; &nbsp; 41200&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 83.33%12&nbsp; &nbsp; 62000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 90.86%13&nbsp; &nbsp; 86000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 90.49%14&nbsp; &nbsp; 110000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 82.68%15&nbsp; &nbsp; 150000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 80.89%16&nbsp; &nbsp; 206000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 80.65%17&nbsp; &nbsp; 310000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 88.71%18&nbsp; &nbsp; 430000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 88.95%19&nbsp; &nbsp; 550000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 81.67%20&nbsp; &nbsp; 750000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 80.18%21&nbsp; &nbsp; 1030000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 80.13%22&nbsp; &nbsp; 1550000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 88.30%23&nbsp; &nbsp; 2150000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 88.64%24&nbsp; &nbsp; 2750000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 81.47%25&nbsp; &nbsp; 3750000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 80.04%26&nbsp; &nbsp; 5150000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 80.03%27&nbsp; &nbsp; 7750000&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 88.21%28&nbsp; &nbsp; 10750000&nbsp; &nbsp; 92.39%29&nbsp; &nbsp; 13750000&nbsp; &nbsp; 92.37%30&nbsp; &nbsp; 16250000&nbsp; &nbsp; 88.15%[/code][/sblock]Well, this does change the formula so that now from level 9 and up I get closer to 80-90% of the average value, for a total average of 85.5%.&nbsp; Being off by about 15% seems more generous and possibly more realistic, depending on your PCs' playstyles - and in any case closer to the style that I would prefer.I won't make a chart (edit:&nbsp; I made a chart; see <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/253564-math-analysis-dungeon-masters-guide-loot-guidelines-starting-pcs-above-level-1-a.html#post4737440" target="_blank">post 11</a>), but as you might suspect adding an n-1 item (only) to the DMG guidelines put the totals in the 70-80% range.Another idea was adding an n+2 to the original.&nbsp; This actually puts the loot level right at 95% to 100% (although it drops to around 90 sometimes), and if you're looking to equal the amount distributed to players without any loss for consumables or other expenditures, it's not a bad route (past level 8).&nbsp; (Edit:&nbsp; see post 11 for more numbers regarding n+2.)However, these formula all still give a common problem:&nbsp; namely, that it forms a weird inverted logarithmic scale, where early levels give too much, and then later levels settle into a weird bouncing pattern that changes every time you hit a new loot level plateau (every 5 levels).&nbsp; Again, this is good for a general metric, and great for shorthand - which is, I'm sure, why they did it.&nbsp; But what if you're looking for something a little more...&nbsp; accurate?&nbsp; A little more specific?Well, the best I could do was come up with a chart - which means it'll never actually be used (possibly even by me), but I think it's really one of the better ways to give a consistent guideline for starting loot levels.&nbsp; Clearly, I favor the &gt;80% range, so you can certainly change this chart for your own needs if you feel that's too generous.It only requires a chart through level 9, at which point it just switches to the constant formula above:&nbsp; so paragon through epic, you're golden.&nbsp; It's really just heroic tier that this chart is meant to fix.&nbsp; Also, it may be easier and more practical to substitute gold for the n-1 and n-2 extra items, since it makes it simpler for the players.&nbsp; These charts are all based on numerical values, so sub for gold as you see fit.[sblock][code]str lvl&nbsp; &nbsp; items&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; gold1*&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1002&nbsp; &nbsp; n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; n-13&nbsp; &nbsp; n, n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; n-14*&nbsp; &nbsp; n+1, n, n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; n-15*&nbsp; &nbsp; n+1, n, n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; n-16&nbsp; &nbsp; n+1, n, n-1, n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; n-17&nbsp; &nbsp; n+1, n, n-1, n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; n-18&nbsp; &nbsp; n+1, n, n-1, n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; n-19+&nbsp; &nbsp; n+1, n, n-1, n-1, n-2&nbsp; &nbsp; n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *same as DMG guidelines[/code][/sblock]And finally, if you wish to make the starting gold values incredibly close to what the average player would have at each level (and you don't mind hitting 101% at level 12):[sblock][code]str lvl&nbsp; &nbsp; items&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; gold1*&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1002&nbsp; &nbsp; n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; n-13&nbsp; &nbsp; n, n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; n-14*&nbsp; &nbsp; n+1, n, n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; n-15&nbsp; &nbsp; n+1, n, n-1, n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; n-16&nbsp; &nbsp; n+1, n, n-1, n-1, n-2&nbsp; &nbsp; n-17&nbsp; &nbsp; n+1, n, n-1, n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; n-18&nbsp; &nbsp; n+1, n, n-1, n-1, n-2&nbsp; &nbsp; n-19+&nbsp; &nbsp; n+2, n+1, n, n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; n-1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *same as DMG guidelines[/code][/sblock]What do folks think?&nbsp; Useful?&nbsp; Interesting?&nbsp; Neither?&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="evilbob, post: 4736478, member: 9789"] The math behind what to give out in items/treasure for starting PCs above level 1 has always seemed a bit [I]odd[/I] to me. Specifically, it generally feels a bit low. Additionally, it's clearly broken for very low levels - you can't really use it to start someone at level 2, or they'd be much richer than they should be. Well, I finally decided to just find out exactly what the math really is. First, I decided to establish what I considered a "baseline." This is the total amount of money given at each level including all parcels, then averaged over the total party members. While this isn't really practical in a real-world setting, since realistically you'll get several items of various levels over the course of the game and practically no DM will be a perfect arbiter of loot distribution, it does help set a sort of standard for about where everyone should be if everything was distributed perfectly. Here is a listing for 5 party members of the [I]total loot gained at each level[/I] along with [I]what each party member receives[/I] on average (i.e. the total divided by 5) and the [I]sum of all loot per party member[/I] at that level. I have ignored the starting 100 gold for all calculations. [sblock] [code] level 5 PCs total each / lvl each total 1 3760 752 752 2 5360 1072 1824 3 7600 1520 3344 4 10480 2096 5440 5 14000 2800 8240 6 18800 3760 12000 7 26800 5360 17360 8 38000 7600 24960 9 52400 10480 35440 10 70000 14000 49440 11 94000 18800 68240 12 134000 26800 95040 13 190000 38000 133040 14 262000 52400 185440 15 350000 70000 255440 16 470000 94000 349440 17 670000 134000 483440 18 950000 190000 673440 19 1310000 262000 935440 20 1750000 350000 1285440 21 2350000 470000 1755440 22 3350000 670000 2425440 23 4750000 950000 3375440 24 6550000 1310000 4685440 25 8750000 1750000 6435440 26 11750000 2350000 8785440 27 14250000 2850000 11635440 28 16250000 3250000 14885440 29 17750000 3550000 18435440 30 21875000 4375000 22810440 [/code] [/sblock]Not too surprising, right? Well, except that yes, that is [B]22.8 [I]million[/I] gold you're expected to acquire over the course of 30 levels[/B] - not too shabby. And a good chart to reference all the same. The next thing I did just for comparison was to find the same values for 6-PC parties and 4-PC parties just to double check. [sblock] [code] level 6PCs total each / lvl each total % diff 4PCs total each / lvl each total % diff 1 4440 740 740 98.40% 3080 770 770 102.39% 2 6040 1006.67 1746.67 95.76% 4520 1130 1900 104.17% 3 8280 1380 3126.67 93.50% 6600 1650 3550 106.16% 4 11800 1966.67 5093.33 93.63% 8680 2170 5720 105.15% 5 15960 2660 7753.33 94.09% 11400 2850 8570 104.00% 6 20760 3460 11213.33 93.44% 15400 3850 12420 103.50% 7 28760 4793.33 16006.67 92.20% 22600 5650 18070 104.09% 8 39960 6660 22666.67 90.81% 33000 8250 26320 105.45% 9 57560 9593.33 32260 91.03% 43400 10850 37170 104.88% 10 78360 13060 45320 91.67% 57000 14250 51420 104.00% 11 102360 17060 62380 91.41% 77000 19250 70670 103.56% 12 142360 23726.67 86106.67 90.60% 113000 28250 98920 104.08% 13 198360 33060 119166.67 89.57% 165000 41250 140170 105.36% 14 286360 47726.67 166893.33 90.00% 217000 54250 194420 104.84% 15 390360 65060 231953.33 90.81% 285000 71250 265670 104.00% 16 510360 85060 317013.33 90.72% 385000 96250 361920 103.57% 17 710360 118393.33 435406.67 90.06% 565000 141250 503170 104.08% 18 990360 165060 600466.67 89.16% 825000 206250 709420 105.34% 19 1430360 238393.33 838860 89.68% 1085000 271250 980670 104.84% 20 1950360 325060 1163920 90.55% 1425000 356250 1336920 104.00% 21 2550360 425060 1588980 90.52% 1925000 481250 1818170 103.57% 22 3550360 591726.67 2180706.67 89.91% 2825000 706250 2524420 104.08% 23 4950360 825060 3005766.67 89.05% 4125000 1031250 3555670 105.34% 24 7150360 1191726.67 4197493.33 89.59% 5425000 1356250 4911920 104.83% 25 9750360 1625060 5822553.33 90.48% 7125000 1781250 6693170 104.00% 26 12750360 2125060 7947613.33 90.46% 9625000 2406250 9099420 103.57% 27 15250360 2541726.67 10489340 90.15% 11625000 2906250 12005670 103.18% 28 17250360 2875060 13364400 89.78% 13125000 3281250 15286920 102.70% 29 18250360 3041726.67 16406126.67 88.99% 14625000 3656250 18943170 102.75% 30 21875360 3645893.33 20052020 87.91% 18750000 4687500 23630670 103.60% [/code] [/sblock]So parties with 6 PCs get somewhere around 10% less total loot, and parties with 4 PCs get somewhere around 5% more. Does this make sense? Parties with more characters may be slightly stronger and those with only 4 slightly weaker against same-level encounters... Except that's supposed to be handled with monster XP budgets... Presumably more PCs end up using less consumables? Anyway, it was interesting, and probably mostly a product of coming up with a good metric and making it "as close as we can get." However, I took away from this that [B]giving out slightly too much treasure to a 6 PC campaign is probably a good idea[/B]. Then I went further to show what the DMG standard [B]n+1, n, n-1, and gold = n-1[/B] metric equated to for each level. [sblock] [code] str lvl DMG tot % 1 100 2 1920 255.32% 3 2560 140.35% 4 3200 95.69% 5 4480 82.35% 6 6400 77.67% 7 9600 80.00% 8 12800 73.73% 9 16000 64.10% 10 22400 63.21% 11 32000 64.72% 12 48000 70.34% 13 64000 67.34% 14 80000 60.13% 15 112000 60.40% 16 160000 62.64% 17 240000 68.68% 18 320000 66.19% 19 400000 59.40% 20 560000 59.86% 21 800000 62.24% 22 1200000 68.36% 23 1600000 65.97% 24 2000000 59.25% 25 2800000 59.76% 26 4000000 62.16% 27 6000000 68.29% 28 8000000 68.76% 29 10000000 67.18% 30 11500000 62.38% [/code] [/sblock]Ah, now that is interesting - and it proves me right! Levels 2 and 3 start far above the norm, but [B]starting at level 9 and above means you're in the 60-70% range[/B], for an average of 64.15%! Again, this is quite a drop off: 35% of your total wealth gone, presumably spent on consumables or traded down items or what have you. Or maybe just to make their metric work well. Whatever. But the idea that this seems "low" got reinforced for me. And it also let me know that [B]the best level to start a campaign loot-wise following these guidelines is 8 or earlier, and then 12, 17, 22, and 27 or 28[/B]. So if you're starting that paragon tier campaign, why not start at 12 instead of 11? :) (Also worth noting: there is no "n+1" value for level 30, so I used a level 30 item value instead. If you use double that item value - two level 30 items - it jumps to 79.33%.) So, what do you do about it? Well, like any DM I immediately tried to think of how I could "fix" this by doing it differently... Perhaps another, similar metric that is just as easy to remember? I experimented with a few numbers, finding one that I liked the best that wasn't too far from the original: [B]n+1, n, n-1, n-1, n-2, and gold = n-1[/B]. This seemed promising because it just adds an n-1 and n-2 item to the original formula. [sblock] [code] str lvl DMG tot % 1 100 2 3 3440 188.60% 4 4400 131.58% 5 6000 110.29% 6 8240 100.00% 7 12400 103.33% 8 17200 99.08% 9 22000 88.14% 10 30000 84.65% 11 41200 83.33% 12 62000 90.86% 13 86000 90.49% 14 110000 82.68% 15 150000 80.89% 16 206000 80.65% 17 310000 88.71% 18 430000 88.95% 19 550000 81.67% 20 750000 80.18% 21 1030000 80.13% 22 1550000 88.30% 23 2150000 88.64% 24 2750000 81.47% 25 3750000 80.04% 26 5150000 80.03% 27 7750000 88.21% 28 10750000 92.39% 29 13750000 92.37% 30 16250000 88.15% [/code] [/sblock]Well, this does change the formula so that now [B]from level 9 and up I get closer to 80-90% of the average value[/B], for a total average of 85.5%. Being off by about 15% seems more generous and possibly more realistic, depending on your PCs' playstyles - and in any case closer to the style that I would prefer. I won't make a chart (edit: I made a chart; see [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/253564-math-analysis-dungeon-masters-guide-loot-guidelines-starting-pcs-above-level-1-a.html#post4737440"]post 11[/URL]), but as you might suspect [B]adding an n-1 item[/B] (only) to the DMG guidelines put the totals in the [B]70-80% range[/B]. Another idea was [B]adding an n+2[/B] to the original. This actually puts the loot level right at 95% to 100% (although it drops to around 90 sometimes), and if you're looking to equal the amount distributed to players without any loss for consumables or other expenditures, it's not a bad route (past level 8). (Edit: see post 11 for more numbers regarding n+2.) However, these formula all still give a common problem: namely, that it forms a weird inverted logarithmic scale, where early levels give too much, and then later levels settle into a weird bouncing pattern that changes every time you hit a new loot level plateau (every 5 levels). Again, this is good for a general metric, and great for shorthand - which is, I'm sure, why they did it. But what if you're looking for something a little more... accurate? A little more specific? Well, the best I could do was come up with a chart - which means it'll never actually be used (possibly even by me), but I think it's really one of the better ways to give a consistent guideline for starting loot levels. Clearly, I favor the >80% range, so you can certainly change this chart for your own needs if you feel that's too generous. It only requires [B]a chart through level 9[/B], at which point it just switches to the constant formula above: so paragon through epic, you're golden. It's really just heroic tier that this chart is meant to fix. Also, it may be easier and more practical to substitute gold for the n-1 and n-2 extra items, since it makes it simpler for the players. These charts are all based on numerical values, so sub for gold as you see fit. [sblock] [code] str lvl items gold 1* 100 2 n-1 n-1 3 n, n-1 n-1 4* n+1, n, n-1 n-1 5* n+1, n, n-1 n-1 6 n+1, n, n-1, n-1 n-1 7 n+1, n, n-1, n-1 n-1 8 n+1, n, n-1, n-1 n-1 9+ n+1, n, n-1, n-1, n-2 n-1 *same as DMG guidelines[/code] [/sblock]And finally, if you wish to make the starting gold values incredibly close to what the average player would have at each level (and you don't mind hitting 101% at level 12): [sblock] [code] str lvl items gold 1* 100 2 n-1 n-1 3 n, n-1 n-1 4* n+1, n, n-1 n-1 5 n+1, n, n-1, n-1 n-1 6 n+1, n, n-1, n-1, n-2 n-1 7 n+1, n, n-1, n-1 n-1 8 n+1, n, n-1, n-1, n-2 n-1 9+ n+2, n+1, n, n-1 n-1 *same as DMG guidelines[/code] [/sblock] What do folks think? Useful? Interesting? Neither? :) [/QUOTE]

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