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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3435546" data-attributes="member: 141">I've been thinking of how particular kinds of modifications affect a creature's CR.  For instance, what would it involve if you doubled its hit points?  Assuming it is defeated in combat and is defeated by being reduced to exactly -1 hp, then doubling its hit points increases its CR by +1.  If it is defeated by non-combat means (a save or die spell, say) or by two blows with (massive overkill on the second blow) then it isn't quite a +1.  A 1/day save reroll option would help vs save or die spells, but not much vs the overkill.  Not quite +1 CR.If a creature doubles its actions (either via a <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm" target="_blank">choker's</a> quickness ability, or something) then this would also add +1 CR.  A little more, actually, since if it wins initiative it could get some instakills off.  But assuming a combat that would last long enough so that the opposition gets half the actions the attacker does, it would be +1.  Stipulating that the second set of actions happens at the end of a round (but not during a surprise round) would help ensure this condition is met.Combining both these modifications should add about +2 to a creature's CR.  Which suggests a handy way of turning a PC into an appropriate challenge for a party of the same level; double the character's hit points and actions.  I'm assuming the challenge will be a combat challenge, and so the modified PC should be a combat PC- not the party skill monkey and trap springer.I imagine this would be a quick way of testing this theory- and if bears out, it would also extend the usability of test creatures.  So if you have a CR 10 monster that is your gold standard, you could double its actions and hit points and use it as a CR 12 gold standard monster.  Note: I *think* that the creature might need a 1/day reroll saves feature for it to be exactly +2 CR.  That's presuming that the codicil about its extra actions coming at the end of a normal (not surprise) round are included.  But I'm not really sure.  <s>Maybe a kind of "slippery saves" mechanic would be better?  (Like slippery mind, but applicable to all saves)</s>[edit]I think a 1/day reroll *and* +2 to all saves would be just about perfect for a +2 CR.Also, I reposted an edited version of the first post in the rules forum: <a href="https://www.enworld.org/index.php?threads/193036/" target="_blank">CR and EL Calculations</a>.  No comments as of this posting, and it will soon be off the first page.  Oh well.I ran down an observation that gestalt characters are (in the level 5 to 15 range) about a LA+2 class.  And also that Bo9S characters play much like gestalt characters; they are rather more powerful than characters out of the PHB.  Perhaps that means that a party could have straight Bo9S characters as well as gestalt PHB characters.Anyway, just a few thoughts.  Not worth the *bump*, but a stealthy edit is a different story. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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