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<blockquote data-quote="Gus L" data-source="post: 9325024" data-attributes="member: 7045072"><p>I haven't really been following the discussion here of lethality in older systems, OSR mythologizing and your own awful 5E lethality experience. What I have seen feels like a discussion that's been going on since the 1970's. Your 5E experience with the TPK bandits gets my sympathy. Bad referees are bad - regardless of system. I think this sort of brutishness could have happened playing Runequest or Star Frontiers or Blades in the Dark ... the magic ingredient is a referee that wants to use any excuse to give the players a bad time. This to me is the answer - I have relatively rare deaths in my OD&D game, I think because my players generally come in expecting dangers, and because I don't hide deadly things (characters can likely tell that a river is too fast to cross in armor etc) and I don't try to kill PCs. I don't think antagonistic refereeing is system based.</p><p></p><p>I the comment that I quoted is one I appreciate though! Having multiple things to "attack" in a system is really useful. While obviously there are campaign aspects like faction reputations and NPC in play here - I think a lot of referees and designers forget that in all D&Ds this generally means HP (of course), but also stats, XP levels, and status effects... Most important though is attacking character equipment - but supplies (consumables be they torches or healing potions) that allow the part to have an easier time, but also their beloved stuff. I have seen players go to greater lengths and get far more upset because so item they valued (even mundane stuff like their basic armor) was threatened or destroyed. It's always worth remembering this and emphasizing it. Not is this a novel idea. Rust monsters, gray oozes, mean wizards with dispel magic, and disenchaters are all old ideas that I think are underutilized these days.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I also think this is interesting. I don't know that all players want to be heroes, I I think being clear about the nature of the setting effects things. What I struggle with is the idea that the heroism represented by vernacular fantasy is a meaningful sort and if heroism is worth attaching game mechanics to. I like my heroics to cost a little - the good path is often the harder one, and saving the poor and oppressed rarely leads to wealth and power. I love it when my players do it anyway - when they aren't amoral jerks, but I think it's important to let them choose. A comprehensible, coherent world - including its morals and rewards for virtue is always more fun for me to play in then one where one is simply the good guy. This might be a growing up in the 90's thing - we did love our antiheroes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gus L, post: 9325024, member: 7045072"] I haven't really been following the discussion here of lethality in older systems, OSR mythologizing and your own awful 5E lethality experience. What I have seen feels like a discussion that's been going on since the 1970's. Your 5E experience with the TPK bandits gets my sympathy. Bad referees are bad - regardless of system. I think this sort of brutishness could have happened playing Runequest or Star Frontiers or Blades in the Dark ... the magic ingredient is a referee that wants to use any excuse to give the players a bad time. This to me is the answer - I have relatively rare deaths in my OD&D game, I think because my players generally come in expecting dangers, and because I don't hide deadly things (characters can likely tell that a river is too fast to cross in armor etc) and I don't try to kill PCs. I don't think antagonistic refereeing is system based. I the comment that I quoted is one I appreciate though! Having multiple things to "attack" in a system is really useful. While obviously there are campaign aspects like faction reputations and NPC in play here - I think a lot of referees and designers forget that in all D&Ds this generally means HP (of course), but also stats, XP levels, and status effects... Most important though is attacking character equipment - but supplies (consumables be they torches or healing potions) that allow the part to have an easier time, but also their beloved stuff. I have seen players go to greater lengths and get far more upset because so item they valued (even mundane stuff like their basic armor) was threatened or destroyed. It's always worth remembering this and emphasizing it. Not is this a novel idea. Rust monsters, gray oozes, mean wizards with dispel magic, and disenchaters are all old ideas that I think are underutilized these days. I also think this is interesting. I don't know that all players want to be heroes, I I think being clear about the nature of the setting effects things. What I struggle with is the idea that the heroism represented by vernacular fantasy is a meaningful sort and if heroism is worth attaching game mechanics to. I like my heroics to cost a little - the good path is often the harder one, and saving the poor and oppressed rarely leads to wealth and power. I love it when my players do it anyway - when they aren't amoral jerks, but I think it's important to let them choose. A comprehensible, coherent world - including its morals and rewards for virtue is always more fun for me to play in then one where one is simply the good guy. This might be a growing up in the 90's thing - we did love our antiheroes. [/QUOTE]
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