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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 1114923" data-attributes="member: 2205">In my experience, the problem isn't inherent in the system of d20, it's inherent in the fact that it's D&D and that evokes a certain mindset in players.  I have folks that play much more gamist and "less mature" using your definition of the term in D&D than they do in d20 Modern for instance.  I think it's subtle, but the fact that they've been playing all these older editions of D&D for so long means they don't associate the game with deep, heavy immersion storytelling style games.  It doesn't mean the system isn't a good one to provide that, just that the mindset associated with the very fact that's it's D&D makes it harder to get to that point.But that's just my experience...</blockquote>