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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RangerWickett" data-source="post: 1107725" data-attributes="member: 63">Well, in response to the "90 on a skill check vs. 9th level spell" point, you'd have to be well past 40th level to get anywhere near a 90 on a skill check, and I think 40th level characters, if one were to use them, would be incredibly more powerful even in their natural bodies than the magic that could be wielded by someone at 20th level.I'd say balancing on a cloud is actually impossible, but a lot of the other ideas presented in this thread seem more a matter of misinterpretation than one of impossibility.  For the sake of this discussion, let's stick to the realm of DC 80 or lower.  Stuff that's in the Epic Level Handbook is as far as we're going to go.For a diplomacy check, you need a DC 50 to make a hostile person friendly.  Now, you're my friend, right?  If I asked you to hand over to me everything you own, of course you wouldn't do it, because that's more than you can ask of a friend.  I think the ELH gives rules for making people your fanatical followers, which actually I consider a bad idea, but let's run with it.  In the real world, suave folks can convince willing people to hand over all they own.  To use a slightly risky example, some corrupt preachers have convinced people already friendly to them to hand over huge sums of money.  I'd guess the DC to make a helpful person 'fanatical' is 30, quite possible with a few good attempts.  Of course, to make an unfriendly lich your fanatical follower, you'd need a 50 or higher, perhaps, but it could be done.  You convince the lich to serve you, because you are the route to it gaining even more power.  So in it's mind, it's not giving up power; it's using power to gain more.  Certainly a hard sell, and not one I could manage, but someone sufficiently heroic could do it.  To convince a hostile lich while in the middle of combat would be much harder, requiring a DC 80 or so, with a -10 penalty because you're trying to do it as a free action.  But I can imagine someone sufficiently charismatic being able to convince his enemy to listen.  He shouts, "If you harm me, you throw away infinite power!" with just the right tone to his voice, and it clicks.For a more mundane example, if Piratecat came to this thread and said he thinks a DC 50 Concentration check should let you cast a wish while being slammed into a stone wall by the force of a tsunami, people would be inclined to belief him.  If some random guy none of us know or like said the same thing, he'd have a harder time being accepted.It's possible to do ridiculous things with enough talent.  I mean, a master rockclimber can freescale a 600 ft. cliff in two minutes (saw it in a documentary; most impressive).  That's the equivalent of forty DC 30 climb checks in a row, so I'm guessing the guy had a pretty good climb check.For me, as a quick guideline, spending a minute and getting a DC 20 check result can match about anything a 1st level spell could do, and every 10 higher is about a spell level higher.  So spending a minute on a Bluff check to get a result of 60 would be suitable enough for me to let you ~sorta~ dominate someone, making them do something you want because they fall for a complex lie that leads them to do something of their own free will.</blockquote>

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