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Maxwell's Silver Hammer: On Spells, Design, and the feeling of Sameyness in 5e
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 7916850" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>To me you miss a huge one where 5e has a serious problem with same-yness, although not as bad as 3.5. And that's "Prosthetic Forehead Monsters". When a monster like a succubus has abilities that are mere spells, then it means that the succubus, rather than being something weird and frightening, is nothing more than a wizard with a prosthetic forehead, and whatever it can do the PCs can do. Which makes the whole setting bland.</p><p></p><p>And when you turn all the interesting abilities into spells you end up with a game of magicians and muggles.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To me the problem here was turning the back on 1e - and in doing so meaning that the "big" casters could fit almost any niche. It's the "I can do anything" that makes them bland every bit as much as the overlapping spell lists.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes! Absolutely! And when all effects are measured by spells (as they are) it turns the characters without them into muggles.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Can't agree here. Or rather I can but I can't agree that spellcasters learning magical self defence is a problem or the easiest things to cast being bland is a problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Only in the way allowing wizards to shoot crossbows did. Cantrips are not the match for any serious weapon (other than Eldritch Blast) and aren't designed to be. They are meant to be a replacement for using crossbows, daggers, and staves - and do about as much damage as physical weapons on a caster for the first few levels - or half that of an actual warrior.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Honestly, and I don't like saying this because it's probably my favourite class, the Warlock is a huge part of the problem. If the warlock didn't exist then all the other casters would look a whole lot more different because there wouldn't be this one caster that had walked in from another game and shown just how different things could be.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>EB makes the warlock as good round to round as a beastmaster ranger is with a bow. Nothing more.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Weapon damage was changed because everyone was wielding iron spikes because they were the cheapest weapon available. I think that answers that question.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand in games like 13th Age and Dungeon World where weapon damage is by character class I've not noticed people doing things like that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Apparently people think the 4e fighter and wizard feel same-y though.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>5e appears to be a game about magic users and muggles. And my favourite classes are the warlock and the shadow monk - both of which are weird and can do stuff which isn't spells. I wish there were more of them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 7916850, member: 87792"] To me you miss a huge one where 5e has a serious problem with same-yness, although not as bad as 3.5. And that's "Prosthetic Forehead Monsters". When a monster like a succubus has abilities that are mere spells, then it means that the succubus, rather than being something weird and frightening, is nothing more than a wizard with a prosthetic forehead, and whatever it can do the PCs can do. Which makes the whole setting bland. And when you turn all the interesting abilities into spells you end up with a game of magicians and muggles. To me the problem here was turning the back on 1e - and in doing so meaning that the "big" casters could fit almost any niche. It's the "I can do anything" that makes them bland every bit as much as the overlapping spell lists. Yes! Absolutely! And when all effects are measured by spells (as they are) it turns the characters without them into muggles. Can't agree here. Or rather I can but I can't agree that spellcasters learning magical self defence is a problem or the easiest things to cast being bland is a problem. Only in the way allowing wizards to shoot crossbows did. Cantrips are not the match for any serious weapon (other than Eldritch Blast) and aren't designed to be. They are meant to be a replacement for using crossbows, daggers, and staves - and do about as much damage as physical weapons on a caster for the first few levels - or half that of an actual warrior. Honestly, and I don't like saying this because it's probably my favourite class, the Warlock is a huge part of the problem. If the warlock didn't exist then all the other casters would look a whole lot more different because there wouldn't be this one caster that had walked in from another game and shown just how different things could be. EB makes the warlock as good round to round as a beastmaster ranger is with a bow. Nothing more. Weapon damage was changed because everyone was wielding iron spikes because they were the cheapest weapon available. I think that answers that question. On the other hand in games like 13th Age and Dungeon World where weapon damage is by character class I've not noticed people doing things like that. Apparently people think the 4e fighter and wizard feel same-y though. 5e appears to be a game about magic users and muggles. And my favourite classes are the warlock and the shadow monk - both of which are weird and can do stuff which isn't spells. I wish there were more of them. [/QUOTE]
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