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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5176168" data-attributes="member: 71571">That's not the equivalent argument tho.Ruthless Ruffian is:Ruthless Ruffian: You are proficient with the club and the mace, and you can use those weapons with Sneak Attack or any rogue power that normallyrequires a light blade. If you use a club or a mace to deliver an attack that has the rattling keyword, add your Strength modifier to the damage roll.It's not the same wording.The argument here isn't that you didn't spend a healing surge.  The argument is that you regain hit points as if you'd spent a healing surge.  Are you saying you do not regain hit points as if you'd spent a healing surge?More importantly, the argument that it breaks the game isn't about CLW specifically.  It's about setting the precident that 'Do X as if it were Y' abilities do not actually do so.  That means that -other- abilities that allow 'as if it were' type substitutions no longer work.  An example was given above of how it falls apart, in Wizard of the Spiral Tower.  That would mean that the wizard who took that class couldn't use Accurate Wand or Staff of Defense or Orb of Imposition.  The argument against CLW giving hit points goes like this:You regain hit points as if you spent a healing surge.-But you didn't actually do so, so Healing Lore doesn't kick in.-So, therefore, you just get your surge value.So applying that precident to other rules:Wizard of the Spiral Tower:You treat a longsword as if it were a staff of defense.-But it's not actually a staff, so Staff of Defense is not available.-So, therefore, you do not get your +1 to AC.Conjurations:You determine line of sight normally. but you determine line of effect from the conjuration. as if you were in its space.-But it's not actually your space-so stuff that blocks line of effect can still block it if it's between you and the enemy.See, this is where it gets problematic.  Rules DO break down.  Healer's Lore needs additional errata to make it not work with CLW in order for it to function."When you let a creature spend a healing surge to regain hit points with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points the recipient regains."The way CLW is written, it treats regaining hit points as if he had spent that surge.  Healer's Lore is a regaining hit point-affecting thing, so it fully applies.  If it did not, CLW would NOT be working as it is stated, it would NOT be letting you regain hps as if you spent that surge.Either that or 'Do X as if it were Y' doesn't work.One.  Or the other.  And the second breaks the game rules apart.</blockquote>

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