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<blockquote data-quote="Alaxk Knight of Galt" data-source="post: 4423439" data-attributes="member: 4129"><p>With respect sir, the games are radically different. DnD is a cooperative, open ended storytelling game. Magic is a competitive, collectible card game with a clear starting point and ending point. However, DnD has been an exception based game since I began playing it in 1997 with the 2nd Edition rules.</p><p></p><p>2nd edition saving throw system was exceptions based</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Paralysis, Poison, or Death Magic</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Petrification or Polymorph</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rods, Staves, Wands </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spells</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Breath Weapons</li> </ul><p></p><p>If you were attacked by a fireball from a wand, you rolled a different saving throw then if you were attacked by a Wizard casting fireball (Rods. Staves, Wands v Spells). If you were attacked by a Death Magic spell from a wand or from a Wizard, you rolled the same saving throw. Based on your save and the effect, the effect you saved against had full effect, partial effect, or no effect.</p><p></p><p>In 3rd Edition, you got 1 attack per round. Unless you had the cleave feat and knocked an opponent to 0 hp. Then you got a bonus attack on an adjacent target.</p><p></p><p><strong>Magic is Like DnD</strong></p><p></p><p>I believe your argument would be better if you addressed the type of Game Magic is: a resource management game.</p><p></p><p>The goal of magic is to reduce your opponent's life total to 0. You do this by managing the cards in your hand, your mana, your own life total, the spells you play, and the creatures you control. You also do this by manipulating or destroying your opponent's resources. </p><p></p><p>The 4E combat system is very resource management heavy. Daily, Encounter, and Utility powers, your hit points, magic items, and your action points, must be managed to defeat your opponents on the battle field.</p><p></p><p>Many games are resource management games though; Monopoly, Shadows over Camelot, or Settlers of Catan. </p><p></p><p>For me, it comes down to this: Magic is a competitive, collectible card game with firm goals, a winner and a loser, and a clear finish. While, DnD is a cooperative, story telling game with no firm goals, no clear finish, and no winner or loser.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I too think it would be naive to assume that 4E was not designed with these possibilities in mind. I know D&DI was designed that way as they pulled Pazio's Dungeon and Dragon magazines to include as a part of it. </p><p></p><p>However, I do not begrudge WotC for trying to develop their product line or expand it. If a new WotC product comes out, I evaluate it based on my desire to own it, the amount of entertainment I will receive from the item, and the cost of the item.</p><p></p><p>I am completely befuddled at the cry's of WotC is trying to make us buy stuff! Yes, they are. WotC is trying to separate you from your money. The catch is, you get to decide if, when, and how much money you want to spend on WotC products.. Wizards of the Coast is in business to make money. They do that by providing hobby games for consumers to purchase and enjoy. If you do not enjoy the games they produce, don't by them. If enough people stop enjoying the products they produce and stop purchasing them, WotC will go out of business. </p><p></p><p>Yes, the subscription base model is very, very attractive as it has the potential to make a lot of money. As a consumer, I have made the decision not to buy a monthly subscription to D&DI. However, many people will buy it and enjoy it. I do not begrudge WotC for creating it (whenever it comes) and I do not begrudge those who purchase and enjoy it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>While I can not quote you numbers, Dragons sell. Anything associated with Dragons sell. While this is a personal opinion, I believe that the Dragonborn was put on the cover to help sell the book. I would love WotC to comment on it though <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool :cool:" data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /></p><p></p><p>Homebrew, by its very definition, includes only stuff the DM wants in the game. When I run games, I am infamous for massively restricting magic, using steampunk technology, and having firearms. I'm not scared to do it, I do not think I'm violating "DnD" when I do it. I just do it. Implied setting means nothing to me and very little to the group of players I play with. Your experiences may be different though.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What signs is WotC showing of being cavalier with their customer base? Examples always help <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool :cool:" data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Alaxk Knight of Galt, post: 4423439, member: 4129"] With respect sir, the games are radically different. DnD is a cooperative, open ended storytelling game. Magic is a competitive, collectible card game with a clear starting point and ending point. However, DnD has been an exception based game since I began playing it in 1997 with the 2nd Edition rules. 2nd edition saving throw system was exceptions based [LIST] [*]Paralysis, Poison, or Death Magic [*]Petrification or Polymorph [*]Rods, Staves, Wands [*]Spells [*]Breath Weapons [/LIST] If you were attacked by a fireball from a wand, you rolled a different saving throw then if you were attacked by a Wizard casting fireball (Rods. Staves, Wands v Spells). If you were attacked by a Death Magic spell from a wand or from a Wizard, you rolled the same saving throw. Based on your save and the effect, the effect you saved against had full effect, partial effect, or no effect. In 3rd Edition, you got 1 attack per round. Unless you had the cleave feat and knocked an opponent to 0 hp. Then you got a bonus attack on an adjacent target. [B]Magic is Like DnD[/B] I believe your argument would be better if you addressed the type of Game Magic is: a resource management game. The goal of magic is to reduce your opponent's life total to 0. You do this by managing the cards in your hand, your mana, your own life total, the spells you play, and the creatures you control. You also do this by manipulating or destroying your opponent's resources. The 4E combat system is very resource management heavy. Daily, Encounter, and Utility powers, your hit points, magic items, and your action points, must be managed to defeat your opponents on the battle field. Many games are resource management games though; Monopoly, Shadows over Camelot, or Settlers of Catan. For me, it comes down to this: Magic is a competitive, collectible card game with firm goals, a winner and a loser, and a clear finish. While, DnD is a cooperative, story telling game with no firm goals, no clear finish, and no winner or loser. I too think it would be naive to assume that 4E was not designed with these possibilities in mind. I know D&DI was designed that way as they pulled Pazio's Dungeon and Dragon magazines to include as a part of it. However, I do not begrudge WotC for trying to develop their product line or expand it. If a new WotC product comes out, I evaluate it based on my desire to own it, the amount of entertainment I will receive from the item, and the cost of the item. I am completely befuddled at the cry's of WotC is trying to make us buy stuff! Yes, they are. WotC is trying to separate you from your money. The catch is, you get to decide if, when, and how much money you want to spend on WotC products.. Wizards of the Coast is in business to make money. They do that by providing hobby games for consumers to purchase and enjoy. If you do not enjoy the games they produce, don't by them. If enough people stop enjoying the products they produce and stop purchasing them, WotC will go out of business. Yes, the subscription base model is very, very attractive as it has the potential to make a lot of money. As a consumer, I have made the decision not to buy a monthly subscription to D&DI. However, many people will buy it and enjoy it. I do not begrudge WotC for creating it (whenever it comes) and I do not begrudge those who purchase and enjoy it. While I can not quote you numbers, Dragons sell. Anything associated with Dragons sell. While this is a personal opinion, I believe that the Dragonborn was put on the cover to help sell the book. I would love WotC to comment on it though :cool: Homebrew, by its very definition, includes only stuff the DM wants in the game. When I run games, I am infamous for massively restricting magic, using steampunk technology, and having firearms. I'm not scared to do it, I do not think I'm violating "DnD" when I do it. I just do it. Implied setting means nothing to me and very little to the group of players I play with. Your experiences may be different though. What signs is WotC showing of being cavalier with their customer base? Examples always help :cool: [/QUOTE]
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