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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 8622927" data-attributes="member: 5889">I have argued multiple times that 4e's biggest problem was not mechanical....but narrative. For example, just skim through the 3.5 PH, now do the 5e one. They both read more like tomes or novels, yes filled with mechanics, but there is a narrative flow to them.Now look at 4e's....it reads like a textbook. There is a mechanical "dryness" to 4e that is hard to shake.I think 4e had a lot of really good mechanical innovations, several of which stuck around into 5e. I still think 4e's monster design (post MMI) is the best I've worked with, and is lot more engaging than 5e monsters.That said, I do think 4e dropped the mechanical ball in a few areas:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Grindy Combats: This was more a product of MMI style 4e. Combats were often not just long, but tedious. The players would blow through their powers, and then it was at-will after at-will while the monster ineffectually fought until it died. This was notorious in many solo battles. MMII and especially MMIII designs fixed a lot of this, but the bad taste never went away for some people. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magic Items: I think 4e had the most bland magic items of any system to date. I still remember to this day, my group of 12th level characters were given a special boon.... each of them could have any 14th level magic item they wanted...no holds barred. I was expecting my players to be buzzing with excitement. Instead, at the next session....not a single one of them had even looked, and once pressed, most just picked up some 3rd level item or something. Magic had become so boring, that the thought of getting a high level item didn't excite a single one of them. This was the greatest fail of 4e to me. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Skill Challenges: The original core math of the skill challenge was fundamentally broken, and WOTC had to errata it some time later. But the thing with skill challenges is they are really easy to run badly....and when you do I would rather watch paint dry. It actually takes some real work to make a skill challenge cool and engaging, and when you do its great...but I think WOTC really underestimated the work that needs to go here and didn't spend enough time coaching DMs and providing lots of good examples of how to make great skill challenges. Instead they just threw out the toolkit and assumed DMs would instantly use them well....and a lot of people didn't.</li> </ul></blockquote>

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