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Message: <blockquote data-quote="teitan" data-source="post: 8624745" data-attributes="member: 3457">The mistake wasn't as big as it seemed with the ICv2 reporting since that was just game stores reporting and the months where PF outsold D&D4e are over emphasized because they were late in the 4e lifecycle after several products had been canceled such as the Ravenloft RPG and some were rescheduled for muuuuuuuuuuuuch later. I think it was like 8-9 month stretch. The Nentir Vale book was cancelled, a handful, when Hasbro slashed the budget because 4e wasn't hitting the magical 50 million dollars that they had told WOTC to hit to make D&D a marquee brand like Transformers and My Little Pony. The problem for 4e were several though. First it was iterative in design and the errata was constant. The math was off and they were constantly updating it and it was a well known problem, so much so they introduced a new feat to "fix the math". The product line was confusing with PHB 1,2 & then 3 with classic D&D classes spread across those 3 books and not settled into the core book as they traditionally were.  The amount of product being released was as much as 3.x but bloat was happening more rapidly. The very real idea of needing DDI to build a character was, unlike DDB, a barrier for entry. Even though DDI was a great product it failed to deliver on the promise it offered, things we take for granted today with programs like Roll20, DDB, Syriniscape etc. They launched with it as a core element of the game and it really cramped the game early on that it was essentially vaporware from the word "go".The system was such an overhaul and so vastly different from what came before that it was unrecognizable as D&D. People expected an update of 3.5 with the Star Wars Saga Edition being the model for where they were going as early hype indicated along with the Book of 9 Swords (I think it was called). Instead it was a very different system that was also a very cool system that would have been at home in a skirmish game. They doubled down on the miniature aspect. I know some people argue that you can play 4e without miniatures and I do not doubt that but as designed it was designed to be fully integrated with miniatures to help sell what was then the extremely popular D&D Miniatures blind boxes. The rules are very clearly intended to take full advantage of miniatures and this implied an investment beyond just the books. For some that was not a big deal but it's a barrier, especially when the miniatures were discontinued in January 2011, which was probably the beginning of the end of 4e and just after Essentials launched. While Essentials launched with an extensive collection of counters included in the DM set and the Monster Vault, it was not enough because the product line was confusing with the original core books on the shelves still and it being marketed as "not a revision or new edition".Another aspect was that the early promotional material while recognizing the issues with 3.x D&D also ridiculed what was a very popular game that was getting long in the tooth but as evidenced in the continued vibrancy and longevity of Pathfinder, was more in need of minor revisions and tweaks than a complete overhaul. The advertising made fun of the game, which unintentionally mocked the players of the game. The bottom line though is that for players lost to Pathfinder or the OSR movement, 4e also made new players in droves. DDI was essentially printing money, RPG sales aren't massive though and Hasbro didn't include licensing, video games or novels in the bottom line for D&D's targets. The Atari situation with Hasbro Games/Infogrames was a bad deal all around for Hasbro but particularly D&D with Neverwinter Nights being the sole stand out and pre-4e. So it wasn't a hot period for D&D at all anyway. I did another post where I showed how the months when Pathfinder hit no. 1 coincided with the period when they weren't releasing new product following the cancellation of several products and that when they did release new product D&D would pop back up to number 1. But the market was fractured at this point into Pathfinder, 3.5 and the OSR were a big deal. The OSR was denting 3.5 before 4e even launched with OSRIC in 2006 unlocking old school style of play and opened the floodgates of BX and BECMI clones. I can remember very clearly these boards and RPG.net having copious amounts of threads on these games and Castles & Crusades. Of course now, only a handful are still futzing around like Old School Essentials, Lamentations of the Flame Princess and Swords & Wizardry.</blockquote>

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