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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9231709" data-attributes="member: 18">I want to agree but I can't, because it's contradictory to the "bag of rats" logic, hard-contradictory.Either a group of enemies is a threat worthy of a Victory or they're a bag of rats. You can't put them in a quantum superposition where they're worthy of a Victory if you fight them, but not if you evade them.I do agree that if they were trivially avoided (i.e. by simply going around them easily - which I wouldn't characterize as "sneaking past", note, so to me that language indicates that wasn't the case), that is a bit different, that probably need to be examined by the rules as to what should happen.And it's still a perverse incentive. You're incentivized to fight any enemy which doesn't count as a "bag of rats", if you don't award people for sneaking past them. Also, if you set a high bar for the sneaking reward, that's a perverse incentive of its own, because a group who comes up with a smooth, easy solution that doesn't involve rolling, risk, heroism, probably because the DM didn't think of it, should by your logic not be rewarded, whereas a boneheaded group who attempts some super-risky sneak-by because they couldn't come up with a smarter one does get rewarded. This incentive isn't as perverse because that does kind of lean into genre tropes at least.This isn't arguable or deniable, either. It flatly is, factually (not opinion-based) a perverse incentive. But I do note no-one has tried to suggest it isn't, rather just talked around that issue, so I'm not suggesting you have attempted to claim it's not! I just mention it because I'm surprised people have addressed that. Maybe it's too obvious.It's all solvable, imho, by having a different/alternative XP approach though - I don't think 1 Victory is otherwise going to make great odds to the gameplay. But I've seen how motivated perhaps the narrow majority of groups I've encountered are by XP (this is purely anecdotal, if your experience is different, I accept that), particularly more experienced and tactically-minded groups, and I absolutely know that many parties would "steer into the wind" to get an extra chunk of XP - this has been true for the entire 35 years I've been playing and echoed by people describing games too.Based on their source material and inspiration I must disagree. It's a constant in heroic fantasy that people use stealth and evasion, and that it's a good and winning tactic (that often lets you avoid unnecessary bloodshed of less morally turpid minions, too). You don't mindlessly fight every fight in heroic fantasy fiction - but you also don't try and make every fight into an ambush like you do in non-4E D&D/PF1 (and maybe PF2, I dunno). It's kick down the door fantasy, but it doesn't mean you don't sneak at times.Also, If it's always best to punch someone in the face, and that seems to be the approach on the basis of these rules, why even have "sneaking by"-type rules? They simply don't have rules for other stuff they don't think the game should be focusing on, which I think is smart, but I'm seeing a contradiction here.</blockquote>

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