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<blockquote data-quote="Pentius" data-source="post: 5616976" data-attributes="member: 6676736">Whoa, there.&nbsp; First you accuse people who don't normally take Swim of min/maxing, which is pretty much uncalled for.&nbsp; I mean, looking at the Fighter's skill list, you might reasonably be interested in Climb, Jump or Ride, since hey, those are all things I'd expect a heroic warrior to be able to do, too.&nbsp; No min/maxing about it.Then, after tossing that out, you direct us to the Customizing a Character section as if that's a real solution.&nbsp; Here's what that section tells you to do: Haggle with your DM.&nbsp; Haggling with the DM to trade one mechanic for another is the first trick in any min/maxer's arsenal.&nbsp; So which is it, are we min/maxing, or are we stopping the min/maxing?&nbsp; It could be worth a shot, but it is not an acceptable substitute for actually having the rules on your side. Then you finish by telling anyone who wants their Fighter to Swim that it's their own fault if they can't, which is arguably true, but not actually the nature of the complaint.&nbsp; The complaint against the 3e skill system is that even if you do give your Fighter a decent Int score(which would provide him no advantage other than skills), the system fails to let the Fighter cover the sorts of things you could reasonably expect a hero who makes his living being strong to be able to do.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Pentius, post: 5616976, member: 6676736"] Whoa, there. First you accuse people who don't normally take Swim of min/maxing, which is pretty much uncalled for. I mean, looking at the Fighter's skill list, you might reasonably be interested in Climb, Jump or Ride, since hey, those are all things I'd expect a heroic warrior to be able to do, too. No min/maxing about it. Then, after tossing that out, you direct us to the Customizing a Character section as if that's a real solution. Here's what that section tells you to do: Haggle with your DM. Haggling with the DM to trade one mechanic for another is the first trick in any min/maxer's arsenal. So which is it, are we min/maxing, or are we stopping the min/maxing? It could be worth a shot, but it is not an acceptable substitute for actually having the rules on your side. Then you finish by telling anyone who wants their Fighter to Swim that it's their own fault if they can't, which is arguably true, but not actually the nature of the complaint. The complaint against the 3e skill system is that even if you do give your Fighter a decent Int score(which would provide him no advantage other than skills), the system fails to let the Fighter cover the sorts of things you could reasonably expect a hero who makes his living being strong to be able to do. [/QUOTE]

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