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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5618991" data-attributes="member: 42582">Whether or not malice is involved I think varies from poster to poster and post to post. I think more of it is based on ignorance rather than malice - in particular, ignorance of the RPGs that inspired the 4e design.The non-combat issue is one clear example of this. As a preliminary, it has to be noted that the failure of a game to support crafting or profession as part of its action resolution mechanics manifestly does not show that it's all about combat. (It is frequently said, for example, that combat - as opposed to exploration and looting - was secondary to classic D&D play. Whether or not this is true, the way that classic D&D approaches crafting and professions - namely, by treating them as something you pay NPCs to do - is obviously neither here nor there to its truth.)But moving to the more substantive point, 4e has non-combat encounter design guidelines and action resolution mechanics - namely, skill challenges - that are very obviously inspired by scene-framing-and-resolution mechanics of the sort found in games like HeroQuest, Burning Wheel, Maelstrom Storytelling etc. Now it is an open question (i) whether or not one wants that sort of action resolution mechanic, and (ii) whether or not skill challenges are a good design for such a mechanic (to my mind they have some difficulties, both obvious and subtle, but are far from hopeless). But these games are obviously roleplaying games, and generally well-regarded ones.So when a discussion about 4e begins from the premise that it is not an RPG because it doesn't address non-combat activities, something has (to my mind) already gone pretty wrong.Another relevant piece of data that I've posted before, but - as best I recall - never had any response to: of the 21 wizard utility powers in the PHB, at least 9 have obvious or primary non-combat utility, and of the 18 warlock utilities, at least 11 have obvious or primary non-combat utility. Yet one frequently is told that PC powers are all about combat.And in <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/5618079-post78.html" target="_blank">this post</a> on another current thread we have one poster saying "If a mechanic says that a thief or a fighter can perform some action which doesn't align to thieving or fighting at all... something similar to teleportation (you just appear somewhere else), then you begin to lose me" and other posters awarding XP and quoting with approval. But how many rogue powers in PHB, MP and MP2 grant teleportation? One: a level 22 utility power called "Mountebank’s Flight" with the flavour text "You steal a bit of magic to stow away on another creature’s teleportation." (There is also a 20th level teleportation power for the paragon path Arcane Trickster.) Across those books, how many fighter powers grant telepotation? None. (Again, a fighter paragon path which requires warlock multi-classing grants a teleportation utility power at level 12)I don't think posters on an internet forum have any sort of duty to know what they're talking about. It's a hobby site, not an academic colloquium. But comments based on obvious ignorance or disregard of the actual rules text for the game are irritating nevertheless.As to the gamism - I'm not sure what this means. In the Forge sense, classic D&D is a highly gamist version of D&D (Gygax's instructions to players at the end of his PHB are all about "stepping on up" and engaging in "skilled play"). So is 3E. 4e is playable in a gamist fashion, though very different from classic D&D (it doesn't support Gygaxian "skilled play" very well) and also (in my view) provides the best support for narrativist play of any version of D&D. 2nd ed AD&d is the only version of D&D I know that, at least in its official rules text, decried gamist play in the Forge sense.If by "gamism" you mean "ignoring the fiction", then we're right back to the suggestion that 4e is stepping away from being a roleplaying game.</blockquote>

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