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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5619245" data-attributes="member: 2067">It doesn't sink in because those points ignore the real issues. &quot;Fighters Can't Teleport&quot; ignores the real issue at the heart of the &quot;4e powers are too magical for warriors!&quot; That's just contradiction, naysaying. Understanding why someone feels the way they do is hard to do when you automatically shut them down as wrong. They might be wrong, but they probably have a reason for thinking that way, anyway. A reason like &quot;some fighter powers do pretty damn magical things when you view power use as cause and effect, and I don't like not viewing it in that way.&quot;&quot;Just Put It In Your Background&quot; ignores the real issue at the heart of &quot;I can't play the lute in 4e!&quot;, too. It's dismissive. Again, they might be incorrect, but there's a reason they think this way. A reason like &quot;4e doesn't involve very satisfying noncombat rules.&quot; Both of those latter parts are fairly valid criticisms of 4e. 4e does have effect-based power design, and is pretty shoddy on rules that aren't combat. The flailing &quot;Superhero fighters!&quot; and &quot;Can't have noncombat abilities!&quot; are just out-sized reactions about that fact. If you're going to enter a discussion with someone, you should entertain the idea that, even if they're a little off-base now, that they are a reasonable person, and try and understand how a reasonable person could come to believe it. &quot;You're Wrong!&quot; isn't very constructive conversation.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 5619245, member: 2067"] It doesn't sink in because those points ignore the real issues. "Fighters Can't Teleport" ignores the real issue at the heart of the "4e powers are too magical for warriors!" That's just contradiction, naysaying. Understanding why someone feels the way they do is hard to do when you automatically shut them down as wrong. They might [B]be[/B] wrong, but they probably have a reason for thinking that way, anyway. A reason like "some fighter powers do pretty damn magical things when you view power use as cause and effect, and I don't like not viewing it in that way." "Just Put It In Your Background" ignores the real issue at the heart of "I can't play the lute in 4e!", too. It's dismissive. Again, they might be incorrect, but there's a reason they think this way. A reason like "4e doesn't involve very satisfying noncombat rules." Both of those latter parts are fairly valid criticisms of 4e. 4e does have effect-based power design, and is pretty shoddy on rules that aren't combat. The flailing "Superhero fighters!" and "Can't have noncombat abilities!" are just out-sized reactions about that fact. If you're going to enter a discussion with someone, you should entertain the idea that, even if they're a little off-base now, that they are a reasonable person, and try and understand how a reasonable person could come to believe it. "You're Wrong!" isn't very constructive conversation. [/QUOTE]

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