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Mearls' Legends and Lore (or, "All Roads Lead to Rome, Redux")
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<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 5470614" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>These are all good questions and I think you began to answer them in your longer post that I XPed. First of all, something I've been trying to express to DannyAlcatraz (and evidently failing) is that the "core essence" of D&D is inherently nebulous and difficult to define; I would even say that it <em>should </em>be nebulous to allow different takes, different experiences. </p><p></p><p>(I want to be clear again that what I'm talking about as "D&D Experience/core essence" is not synonymous with the game itself. We can try to define "What is D&D" all we want - that is a different (if related) discussion. But when we are talking about the <em>core essence </em>or <em>experience </em>of the game, it is something different.)</p><p></p><p>In this sense there is no sharp line between D&D and, say, Earthdawn. They are related, cousins if you will. Think of D&D as a tradition, a religion even. Buddhism and Hindu Vedanta are strongly related but aren't the same thing; the "core essence" is different, even if many aspects and concepts of their philosophies are similar.</p><p></p><p>A couple times I have used what I am calling the "Threefold Model" for defining D&D as a game: primary D&D, which is any official version of the game as published by TSR or WotC (the brand name holders); secondary D&D, which is any retro-clone or heartbreaker that is based off an official version of the game; and tertiary D&D, which is any RPG that is being used to play fantasy "D&D-style" - with D&D tropes and themes (e.g. a Savage Worlds campaigns set in the Forgotten Realms). They are all D&D, but they are different <em>orders </em>of D&D.</p><p></p><p>Now again, this doesn't define "core essence" although I would say that players of each order partake of this essence simply by virtue of partaking of the tradition.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure if I answered your questions but hopefully I helped bring a bit of light to the issue, as best I can at least.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Cool, I'm not selling anything. Or rather, I'm <em>offering </em>something and discussing it but not trying to get you to buy it. Any disagreement at this point is with regards to your understanding of what I'm trying to express, and I still feel like you're not getting it. That's fine - I can live with that. I'm not sure what else I can say at this point, other than to reiterate what I've already said. I did frame it slightly different to Jasperak above.</p><p></p><p>p.s. I am a "he" not a "she," although I hardly take offense for you confusing me with the superior sex <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First, it depends upon what information you're wanting to convey. I'm not convinced that there are some that actually want to undermine 4E as a valid form of D&D, that it shouldn't be considered part of "real D&D" but as some new version that is "pseudo-D&D." </p><p></p><p>But for those that simply are trying to express that 4E simply doesn't adequately scratch the D&D itch for them, how about something like this: "4E doesn't feel like what I personally consider to be D&D, although I can see how it could for others. I consider a valid, legitimate form of D&D, just not one that scratches my itch."</p><p></p><p>This isn't to be PC, but to be clear about what one means, and to be specific that what one is talking about is one's own relationship to 4E, not someone else's relationship to 4E, or whether or not 4E is actually or really a form of D&D. If one truly means that 4E isn't real D&D but is pseudo D&D, then one should realize what sort of effect that might have on those that feel that 4E <em>is </em>real D&D, especially on a website dedicated to all forms of D&D. (I would also argue that this perspective, that 4E is pseudo-D&D, is actually a perspective that holds little water and one that can be refuted from numerous angles, but that's another discussion).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not sure what you're agreeing with Danny about or seemingly disagreeing with me about as nothing that you said is against what I've been saying. This isn't a pro vs. anti WotC discussion. We were talking about the contents of Mike Mearls' article in relation to previous discussions about the nature of D&D, what I was calling the "D&D experience," and what Mearls called the "core essence" of D&D. In other words, I think these might not be the droids that you were looking for - although I don't disagree with what you wrote.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 5470614, member: 59082"] These are all good questions and I think you began to answer them in your longer post that I XPed. First of all, something I've been trying to express to DannyAlcatraz (and evidently failing) is that the "core essence" of D&D is inherently nebulous and difficult to define; I would even say that it [I]should [/I]be nebulous to allow different takes, different experiences. (I want to be clear again that what I'm talking about as "D&D Experience/core essence" is not synonymous with the game itself. We can try to define "What is D&D" all we want - that is a different (if related) discussion. But when we are talking about the [I]core essence [/I]or [I]experience [/I]of the game, it is something different.) In this sense there is no sharp line between D&D and, say, Earthdawn. They are related, cousins if you will. Think of D&D as a tradition, a religion even. Buddhism and Hindu Vedanta are strongly related but aren't the same thing; the "core essence" is different, even if many aspects and concepts of their philosophies are similar. A couple times I have used what I am calling the "Threefold Model" for defining D&D as a game: primary D&D, which is any official version of the game as published by TSR or WotC (the brand name holders); secondary D&D, which is any retro-clone or heartbreaker that is based off an official version of the game; and tertiary D&D, which is any RPG that is being used to play fantasy "D&D-style" - with D&D tropes and themes (e.g. a Savage Worlds campaigns set in the Forgotten Realms). They are all D&D, but they are different [I]orders [/I]of D&D. Now again, this doesn't define "core essence" although I would say that players of each order partake of this essence simply by virtue of partaking of the tradition. I'm not sure if I answered your questions but hopefully I helped bring a bit of light to the issue, as best I can at least. Cool, I'm not selling anything. Or rather, I'm [I]offering [/I]something and discussing it but not trying to get you to buy it. Any disagreement at this point is with regards to your understanding of what I'm trying to express, and I still feel like you're not getting it. That's fine - I can live with that. I'm not sure what else I can say at this point, other than to reiterate what I've already said. I did frame it slightly different to Jasperak above. p.s. I am a "he" not a "she," although I hardly take offense for you confusing me with the superior sex ;) First, it depends upon what information you're wanting to convey. I'm not convinced that there are some that actually want to undermine 4E as a valid form of D&D, that it shouldn't be considered part of "real D&D" but as some new version that is "pseudo-D&D." But for those that simply are trying to express that 4E simply doesn't adequately scratch the D&D itch for them, how about something like this: "4E doesn't feel like what I personally consider to be D&D, although I can see how it could for others. I consider a valid, legitimate form of D&D, just not one that scratches my itch." This isn't to be PC, but to be clear about what one means, and to be specific that what one is talking about is one's own relationship to 4E, not someone else's relationship to 4E, or whether or not 4E is actually or really a form of D&D. If one truly means that 4E isn't real D&D but is pseudo D&D, then one should realize what sort of effect that might have on those that feel that 4E [I]is [/I]real D&D, especially on a website dedicated to all forms of D&D. (I would also argue that this perspective, that 4E is pseudo-D&D, is actually a perspective that holds little water and one that can be refuted from numerous angles, but that's another discussion). I'm not sure what you're agreeing with Danny about or seemingly disagreeing with me about as nothing that you said is against what I've been saying. This isn't a pro vs. anti WotC discussion. We were talking about the contents of Mike Mearls' article in relation to previous discussions about the nature of D&D, what I was calling the "D&D experience," and what Mearls called the "core essence" of D&D. In other words, I think these might not be the droids that you were looking for - although I don't disagree with what you wrote. [/QUOTE]
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