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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5477860" data-attributes="member: 957">You are desperately splitting hairs now.  I don't think it could be any more obvious that the two statements were presented as a set.  I'll also point out that it is amusing that you have gone to plan B, since the "absolute" thing fell through."We" don't find ourselves bogged down in anything.  The position you are trying to defend is stuck clinging to a combination of word games and ignoring other points altogether.You now clearly agree that in the past there was such a major split in the market that Paizo bet their livelihood on it.  So let's focus on the present and remove all questions of tense from the matter.Are you claiming that the condition that existed on the day 4E was released would have gone away if PF did not exist?  I guess you could claim that.  But the evidence to support that is seriously lacking.  Pathfinder and 4E exist in the same marketplace.  So obviously, like any competing products they cut into each others share.  But that is a mutual thing, and the "best" product wins*.  The significant share of the marketplace who didn't like 4E in the first place is solely a result of 4E.  And, as I predicted three years ago, the rapid burnout rate of 4E which is now in the marketplace is also solely a function of 4E.  PF has nothing to do with these key items.Sure, the option of pathfinder adds some more grains on the scale.  But you can not blame those grains for tipping the scale when the scale was tipped long before the grains were placed there and at no point would have ever tipped back the other way without them.And, bottom line, above and beyond the obvious connection between my two statements, this reality of the scale being tipped on its own all along makes your tense hair splitting irrelevant.  * - Understanding that "best" has nothing to do with individual tastes, and sometimes even has nothing to do with highest quality (VHS, for example).  "Best" in this context simply means a combination of product, marketing, and price to gain the best share.</blockquote>

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