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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CuRoi" data-source="post: 5491165" data-attributes="member: 98032">Well, that makes two that believe I am reading things into it so I'm fine with giving ground to the majority. However, perhaps its agreeable to say he indicates that having to DM versus "powerful spells" is just too complicated. I'm not arguing that it isn't complicated. What I am arguing is there's no reason to shut it down, but instead DMs should feel free to repsond with out of the box solutions. This however seems to be a bad option in the previous text because this might require a DM to sometimes "make up rules that people enjoy" instead of playing by the rules. It might also require DMs to grow and learn how to adapt (see below to follow my quite possibly bizarre and I'm sure again minority viewpoint.) As noted, this is all from my play experience and I frankly have no problem doing just those things 4e is supposed to "solve" according to the above passage. I find removing those DM challenges detrimental -see below.  Again, I think I have made this clear, but this is so far removed from my play style - and I am only speaking from play style. I am not calling on various industry veterans, designers, the local comic book store owner, the uber 4e DM, etc. etc. It's just my opinion. So, for the record, I never sit down at a table with a planned "scenario" to present my players. I know where we left off last game, I know the various intricacies and movements in the world I have created and I have a loose idea of possibilities players could or could not pursue. This coupled with sometimes extensive, sometimes loosely skecthed maps and a database of NPCs in key positions in the major "plot" are all I really need to run a game. They can't ever "win" with one spell. If they do, well, that's dandy. All they've really done is fast track the plot and probably done something we will talk about for years to come.  Again, due to the way I've run things, I have never encountered that issue. I'm not working from a rigidly pre-defined scenario, ever. I present the PCs with a large scale problem and let them pick it apart however they want. If the players in my games do cast "UltraDivination" and magically solve some puzzle in 4 minutes, I don't care. They've got an entire world to explore. To me, deciding that the above "I win Scenario" is inappropriate is just as I pointed out - a capitulation that the game needs to follow set rigidly defined modules which players can't use powers to derail and can only interact with as the script requires. People will argue with me because they think I am saying that means 4e sucks. It doesn't. It means there is a different experience that 4e is trying to create and it is not how I personally run an RPG. It means that IMO, 4e is a bit better suited to skirmishing and dungeon crawling for those reasons. So was Basic DnD, so was 1st Edition, so what, they're still fun games.  Ok, if the DM preparing this murder mystery just completely ignored the fact that the players have access to Find the Path, Commune, Divination, Speak with Dead, whatever "I win" spell you are thnking of, then they simply were not prepared. They then learn from their mistakes and craft an adventure next time that takes the power of the PCs into account. This is entirely the point. I'm NOT necesarily a great DM because I have some misguided ego. I'm a great DM because I have been in those positions, made those mistakes, keep making those mistakes, and slowly learned how to run a better game. Making a ruleset that explicitly sets out to remove the "diffcult" or tough decisions from DMing is tantamount to saying "lets all be average DMs forever".  Then punch 'em in the groin!!! I swear they'll but up a nice low block next time and counter with head butt <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!    :o"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" />  Again, if I am a DM and designing adventures based on "interesting terrain puzzles" for say a party of druids or Harrry Potter wanna-bes on broom sticks, thats my own darn fault. I don't need the rules to save me from myself.</blockquote>

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