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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CuRoi" data-source="post: 5491220" data-attributes="member: 98032">First off, delicious quotes. Thanks <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Second, yep I'm not familair with many indie games. I have read about them, worked with Fudge for a bit (designed a game system for our group for The Matrix based loosely on FUDGE) I am interested in what the guys at Evil Hat are doing, but have only vaguely looked into it. I am familiar with DnD <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> The arguments I'm getting though don't seem to apply to my style in the least. I've never had a player cast an "I win" spell. I enjoy sweating it out when a player puts me on the ropes through creative use of their abilities, I in turn do the same to the players when I play out their encounters with "smart" opponents.  Right, I get that completely. This is not fun to me. I prefer to present the players with a loosely defined challenge and let them throw the kitchen sink at it while I respond with what obstacles I have at hand.  We collaborate on a story and an outcome. If there is an enemy fortress to infiltrate, I let them do it however they desire. If they come up with a combination of spells or abilities the circumvents the "lovingly crafted" defenses, very cool - I've now got a fortress full of angry guys to start hunting them down next game. If they try to execute this "perfect" plan and end up bogged down in a major slugfest (which is often what happens) with every defender in the place, hey, tough break, but also very cool. I want my players to step outside the frame as it were. I don't care if they can cast spells that obliterate the scene if it is within their power to do so. They own this story as much as I do. I just help adjudicate the outcome. Sure, I have final say and I set out the ground rules, but I won't even pretend to know what they are planning next. I won't even assume they can't jump from page one to page 45 through creative use of whatever spell or ability they might have. If they catch my bad guys and their minions with their pants down with "ambush play" wow, that's completely awesome. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> I garauntee it won't happen everytime, but we will both revel in it because ultimately it makes for a great story. Making "ambush play" boring as you say 4e does, again steers everything toward pre-defined, scripted, toe to toe fights. Also very fun, but not at all how I run a game.  Ok...I keep seeing this concern about "well a wizard can cast a spell and win the game" thing over and over. Someone give me a concrete example here. I've been playing/DMing DnD for years, I've had players catch me with my pants down before. It has NEVER however spoiled a session or ruined an entire campaign. It's generally great fun and I don't see why all the concern about it and why you say 4e had to "resolve" this travesty <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  Again, see my response to nms - I've never needed this resolved. Sure, there were maybe some times where players as I mentioned caught me off guard and I just took it from there and ran with it. That's the whole fun behind it. And you know, sometimes my imagined "situations" just plain stink and need some spice! If a player gives me something juicy by intentionally or inadvertently grabbing hold of my precious plot, I'll probably incorporate it and do it in such a way that they thought it was my idea. I don't mind at all stealing a good pointer or two for everyone's enjoyment. (Oooh that's a bad thing right?, heh) The whole key is that we all have fun and enjoy the game. My current group would loath being told they were entering a scenario with limited options just so I the DM could feel comfortable doing my job. Please, they want to smack me around and I'll do the same to them for good measure and all in fun and friendship. It's a game of strategy in a sense that I relish. So, I'll stick to the ugly, messy, "Oooh my PC just cast the I win spell" version of things.</blockquote>

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