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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CuRoi" data-source="post: 5491624" data-attributes="member: 98032">Better yet, let's show everyone how to be that sufficiently good DM and continue to challenge them. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />  Drastically? What, by adding Mind Blank to the mix if they need to protect a plot device from Discern Location? By actually using Misdirection on key NPCs/objects? I'm still not following the drastic difficulty of reading the spells in the book, some of which outline ways to possibly foil them in their description. I don't see the difficulty. IMO, if you are DM that has yet to read the PHB cover to cover and at least retain a little bit of info, you might want to consider a different system.    It can be the same with any system really - I imagine 4e bewilders some people (obviously I am much more bewildered by it than you as an example!)  First - if you are a "new" DM and you decide to run an adventure for players with 5th level+ spells its going to be a trainwreck. I've seen it happen. You traditionally start at low level and following the normal XP progression, you will have quite a few sessions under your belt before PCs hit 10th level. If you still don't get how to craft an adevnture for PCs of that level, maybe DMing isn't your gig. Or, maybe you should wrap the game up at a nice end point right then and there. Then start another campaign and work your way through the levels you are comfortable with until you can start to understand what is necessary at higher levels.  Second - Look, in any game, sport, etc. there is a learning curve. If your players are "suffering" through your attempts at DMing presumably it is in a charitable sense. And if it never gets better, presumably they are good enough friends to step up and say "Hey, look, this just isn't working out. Why don't we let the player who is able to dismantle everything you throw at him in a standard action run the game for a bit?" However, the bottom line is people learn from their mistakes, they learn to be good at something they are motivated to do. I'd rather cultivate Great DMs then rearrraneg a system to accomodate so-so DMs.  I suppose your friends could step up and say "hey let's all play system X so it's not so hard for you to run a game." In which case, at my table, dice would be thrown on both sides, heh.  Ok, you have more experience with the 4e system, so I won't argue about how well it works for you or it doesn't. However, again, removing things just because they could be challenging to a DM seems a bit silly.  You have to understand though, when I say I want to be challenged as a DM, it does not mean I want to be assaulted with tedium. In that respect, if you say streamlining the rules would be a good idea, I'm completely on board. I was immediately sold on ditching the 2e THACO chart when 3e came out. I also really like some of the things 4e did to follow this route like the skills consolidation. Or the idea of Defenses and the idea of Attributes making attacks (though I don't think they took this far enough IMO). I like the HP boost at first level. I like that they attempted to flatten the power curve a bit between classes (but really dislike the end result). I could go on and on with things I -do- like about the system. All of those things do make a DMs job easier so they can focus on the creative aspects - like adjudicating really interesting plot twists introduced by Divination spells. Rules bloat is not a DM "challenge" it is an exercise in sheer tedium. If you tell me they should remove spells that give attribute bonuses I'd be more likely to agree with that before agreeing to removing high level divination spells. Why? Because challenging me to think creatively and out of the box in response to interesting and possibly powerful spell effects is not tedium. Giving players the opportunity to dramatically alter the course of a game or plot with a spell is also not tedious - it's chaallenging, yes, but not tedious. And it's just plain fun. I will plainly submit that I am perhaps very much in the minority on this thinking.  See, again this is where I am obviously bewildered by 4e. I can very clearly see a way to modularly chain room after room and skill challenge after skill challenge to create a dungeon in 4e. Frame "Scenes" players can't leave, etc. which they can plow through with encounter powers, healing surges and second winds. Its darn near perfect for it in the really odd version of 4e I guess I have in my head. 3e not so much. In fact, I've almost never run a dungeon crawl with 3e. Not saying it doesn't work, just saying I don't do it.  Well, the fight example was yours (punch to the groin) I just expanded on it <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> But to keep the analogy going, I'd end up a pretty poor fighter if I fought guys that pulled their punches constantly so they didn't hurt me.  My nephew played on a soccer team once where the whole league was about "winning". I don't mean the uber-competitive winning but the whole "everyone is a winner" concept. You got to run up to open goals and kick it in and it was all happiness and fluffy bunnies and whatever silly ultra-positive reinforcement you could stomach. Too bad IMO such an approach completely devalues the "winning attitude" it is trying to teach. Life is all about challenges and taking it by the horns is the best way to learn. So, what would I do with a system that completely supported me, kept players from derailing things and offered less opportunity to them for out of the box, insanely open solutions? I'd probably run a dungeon crawl, but that's just me <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" /> (Yes, I'm a smart a$$ - sorry I just couldn't resist. If you can't tell, I'm enjoying this debate so I hope no one is taking any of this personally or anything.)</blockquote>

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