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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 5495944" data-attributes="member: 48965">For everyone involved in and/or reading this thread could you please define what "heroic protagonism" is? It would really make following you and understanding what you are trying to convey much easier, as well as giving everyone a point of reference to discuss from. Right now, all we have our inferences and ideas of how you are defining this phrase to lead us in our discussion.  And those dynamics are what exactly? I mean a DM who monitors the availability/acquisition of healing magic in his 3e campaign can ultimately arrive at the same result mechanically as every character having healing surges... can't he?  Wait...what? Maybe I'm missing your point, but the grappling rules in 3e aren't really "gritty" (there's no way to snap bones, gouge eyes, force someone to tap out, choke, etc.) or particularly "intricate" (IMO, again different locks, holds, etc. with differing results) compared to other systems rules.  I would say they are convulted however and that is where some people's dissatisfaction with them come from.  Now granted, compared to 4e which has no actual rules for grappling (only grabbing) outside of specific powers for specific builds... I could see where you might take the view you have... but I just don't see any difference except that it's grapple vs. grab.  Huh? It has skill checks, a combination of which allow one to achieve his goals (There's just no artificial pre-set limit of x successes before Y failures)... how long or slow a challenge is to resolve is based entirely on what one is trying to accomplish and how he/she goes about it. IMO, the way a player chooses to approach problems in 3e in and of itself produces interesting outcomes in the fiction. Again I'm not understanding where 4e is special in this regard.  Eh, not about to read a long thread to see more examples... but if you have a few that stand out by all means please present them... though again I think heroic protagonism really needs to be defined so we can all be on the same page before proceeding with this line of discussion.</blockquote>

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