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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5497415" data-attributes="member: 18280">Don't mistake refining a position for shifting the goalposts.  If you examine the thread in context of the refined statement of position, I believe you will see that the side opposed to your own makes more sense than it might have previously seemed to.Contrast this with the "superhuman" discussion, where the definitions of what is "superhuman" and "human" seem to shift quite often, and where earlier statements make no sense if you accept the later definitions.Refinement is something that should be encouraged in a discussion, rather than seen as a problem.  If, under the refined definition, you suddenly agree with the previous statements, then that is a win for everyone.  Shifting the goalposts is just about not facing (or not admitting) that an argument doesn't make sense.It is, IMHO and IME, not at all uncommon for one party to phrase something poorly, thus leading to a lack of understanding and an apparent strong disagreement where there is little or no actual disagreement to begin with.  I know this because, all too often, I am that one party (Proud to be a Game Master and the Village Idiot, you see).I mean, I would be very happy to define the tent as "all rpgs", in which case it is a very big tent indeed.But, in the case of WotC, "D&D is all a big tent with room for every edition!" rings false when they have limited access to earlier editions as far as they legally can.  Likewise, "4e is a big tent with room for every playstyle!" rings false when one examines the designer commentary or what the edition actually does well.AND, for the record, I think an edition not being a "big tent" is fine.  It allows for a tighter focus, and a more uniform play experience from table to table.  While the degree might be different, that was clearly one of Gygax's goals for AD&D 1e.  It is not a priori bad.On a tangent:  Want to lead me to Rome, WotC?  Release "Return to the Forbidden City" with a big (not mini-scale) poster map of the Forbidden City, and a ton of detailed locations as a mini-campaign setting.  Done well, I'd pay a pretty penny for that boxed set, and I don't even play 4e!Well, just think about it, okay?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />RC</blockquote>

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