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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 5497800" data-attributes="member: 48965">Ok, you still have not explained how 4e's gamist system makes pacing and thematic meaning in a challenge any easier since the rules are only presenting DC's that represent a mechanically appropriate encounter for whatever level of challenge you wish to present to the players. Yet in no way do the rules, in and of themselves, incorporate pacing or theme as you claim.  And yet even 4e has rule 0 so everything still boils down to whether the DM approves it or not... I mean I don't know too many GM's who are going to just let a player take any PP they want from Dark Sun in a FR, Eberron or PoL setting. Also Paragon Paths are still limited by their finite number (unlike Heroquest where a character can create anything he wants) and their own sets of requirements as well as the DM's whim ( As a purely made up example...How can a player in 4e take a Dragon Slayer PP without the DM's agreement that dragons exsist?)... again this seems more your way of looking at 4e and could just as easily apply to 3.5 or Pathfinder.   How is the design of a skill challenge (X successes before Y failures) any better than setting up 5 obstacles in a wilderness journey using Pathfinder, that must be faced before reaching a destination? In fact I feel like I have more control over pacing here because the challenges don't end arbitrarily or become pointless because my players happened to fail 3 checks before 5 were made. In my 3.5 game if I set up 5 obstacles my PC's will face five obstacles (barring something like death as a reprecussion for failing to overcome one of them) then my PC's will face 5 meaningful obstacles. In fact I would say that individual reprecussions and awards cater to the thematic concerns and narrative of different PC's better than one that has a binary ending regardless of how well or bad you did individually.   Wait...what? Short rests and extended rests are very much tied into in-game time. You can't penalize someone for not taking an extended rest unless a certain amount of in-game time has passed... and the same goes for a short rest... so again I'm not seeing your point.     Again... there are in-game ties to these things, it appears that you are just choosing to ignore them. Extended rests can be taken every 8 hours I believe and short term rests are. every 5 minutes.. that's in-game time.    But you are ignoring the normal in-game ties to time that extended rests and short rests have in 4e. As far as your take on 3e's skills go... do you really think you have to roll to go to sleep? The narrative and thematic control in 3e is set by the particular challenges the PC's face... if I want to drain them and make them tired then I make them face the difficulty of finding good shelter... if I want them to face being weakened the obstacles become monsters... and so on   Well IMO, this boils down more to DM and Player style than anything in the rules of 3.5 or 4e... I've seen minutae filled skill challenges and a single skill check cover a broad area in 3.x   Huh? 3.x also allows PC's to express their protagonism via their choices in combat... 4e may nnot have "high search" (and mostly because it forces every player to carry a mini-rules sheet in the form of power cards)... it certainly does have a high amount of handling and tracking with it's numerous fidly bits that change constantly..  As far as grittiness goes... I don't understand your usage of the word. IMO, Runequest is gritty... D&D in all forms (without houserules) just isn't. IMO, the synergizing of powers is tactical play not narrativist. You can slap a coating of narativism over it but it's ultimately tactical play... your powers synergize to produce tactical variance in the game... they do not inherently produce a narrative.   I'm not Beginning but I'll touch on this... IMO, the differences are gamism vs. simulationism... you see all I'm reading in your posts are how you've tweaked and slapped a coat of paint on a gamist system to make it more narrative in your opinion. And for the record I am running a Heroquest Nameless Streets game on the weekends and IMO, it plays nothing like 4e.</blockquote>

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