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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 5499062" data-attributes="member: 48965">This "detail" is only necessary because you are choosing to use it, it's a tool like everything else in 3.x/PF. The skill descriptions make the setting of DC's trivially easy in 3e... especially since their function or the obstacle is what sets them... thus the only thing I need the DC for is the actual obstacle, any other DC's will be determined by the manner in which the PC wants to use the particular skill he chooses.  First the +2/-2 rule in Pathfinder is your friend... you want to stay relatively detail free... any equipment that can help adds a +2 (that doesn't stack) and anything that hinders crossing is a -2.  Next we know that a succesful swimming check allows you to move half your movement, since again we are keeping this short and sweet we set the width in the range of one succesful roll for the majority of characters... 15' and since the description of the river is a strong current... the DC=15 to swim... that took me every bit of 10 secs to figure out. Now the thing is if I want this to be a more detailed encounter/scene I can tweak the DC to swim the length of the river when I create it... sorta like adjusting the level, complexity, advantages, etc. in 4e.  In other words 4e can get just as complex if you use all the rules.  Who said anything about building a hut... I said makeshift shelter, and thus survival would be the most appropriate skill with a DC of 15.   You would resolve them vs. the Bandit with the highest perception score. One roll for him and everyone who tries to sneak past would roll vs. that. Perception vs. Bandit with highest Stealth score.  So do the skill rules in 3.x/Pathfinder... you just refuse to admit it.  Yet I just did... and at a certain point all games including 4e and Heroquest require DM fiat for situations and actions that are unexpected. You will never be able to prepare in advance for every situation... that's what improv is about. IMO, you may prefer a system but once one chooses their system and becomes familiar with either 3.x/PF or 4e it becomes easy to improv with. I honestly get the impression you aren't that familiar with 3.x/PF... am I right?   Wait a minute here... I've had the same thing happen in 4e and I think you are being disingenuous if you say it doesn't. My PC's look at who has the best skills... how those skills can be maximized, who can aid who, and so on, to ensure success... it just takes place moreso on the meta-game level than in-game... but it still happens. That said... Now you're setting up a situation that was not what we were talking about. First you are assuming a DM must have every situation prepared for...not true. in every edition DM calls are necessary. Secondly, you as DM are allowing a quick overland journey to be bogged down in minutae when in fact you don't have to. My initial setup was to have each PC state what they are doing and roll... plain and simple, but now you're changing the parameters of the encounter I set up as DM (RULE 0)... players should know how their skills work so that's not on you as a DM, and I've shown you above how easy it is to set up DC's for obstacles. What I do find interesting is that you seem to be saying that in 4e having pre-set DC's based on level (as opposed to ther world or even the choices the hero makes)... somehow empowers "heroic protagonism"... and I find that hard to believe. Is this what you are claiming?  These same questions have to be answered in 4e since characters can have the same skills and anyone can choose to act or not to act in a SC... not seeing your point?? I will say the survival skill in PF has a certain number of other people who can benefit from your check that is determined by how high you roll.  Yet tons of 4e skill challenges have every PC make an endurance check during travel... and tons of players only have the person with the best skill make a check to avoid failures... what's the difference? Basically you're taking how Permeton's particular skill challenges (which I'm not sure are exactly by the book) are designed and how his players appproach them and claiming that bothy of these are because of 4e's skill challenge rules... and they aren't. You're slapping your own coat of narrativist play over a predominately gamist system.</blockquote>

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