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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5500667" data-attributes="member: 957">Noted.  But I really don't care.  *I'M* talking about what the perceived issues with 4E are.Well, what he is talking about is pretty much a direct hit for the gamist elements that I find detracting in 4E.  Quoting the forge seems a red herring to addressing the issue.I guess you have a slight point with alignment.  But most people use alignment very loosely or ignore it altogether.  I really don't think you are describing a 3E problem that needed solving.This is great and I 100% endorse what you are saying here.  But you are also backfitting the solution onto the system, and further you are doing that despite WotC statements to the effect that they left them as a specific part of the design approach.  So what you are doing is great, but it doesn't make 4E itself any better, it just means playing 4E at your table would be a a hair improved against the average.  (And I'm already willing to take much more than that for granted.)You could say it.  I don't think it is a fitting rebuttal.  When I talk about people having bad experiences with 3E, I'm talking about people actively describing how they went in with expectations and those expectations were not fulfilled.  They wanted an experience and did not get it.  I'm not willing to concede that there are significant numbers of people seeking the game experience you describe.   I mean, I've never had a great game of golf or Pokemon either.  I don't expect that to change any time soon.Not experiencing something you are not after is not at all the same thing as failing to get something you do seek.I'm certain there are others who agree with you.  But overall, I'm also certain your approach is an outlier.  Usually when I talk to 4E fans they DON'T claim that 4E is different then 3E in these ways.  The highly common response is that 4E does everything 3E does, only better and easier.  Which ties back to my prior comment.I've frequently said that I think you can play 4E style using 3E.  I'll still say that.  BUT, I also readily agree that 4E is BETTER if that is what you want.  I think 3E does 4E vastly better than 4E does 3E.  But "vastly better" isn't really anything more than an academic observation.I also agree that you can role play anything in 4E that you can in 3E.  Of course you can.  Role play ultimately is not between the covers of a book.  But the level of satisfaction that the game is going to provide if you want a good model is going to be vastly different.And example I've given before is that I can role play Superman in any system.  But I'm going to find the experience far more satisfying in a PL15+ MnM game than I am in a 100 point GURPS game.  And yet I can role play it just the same.  Obviously the rules in the books need to provide quality feedback to the role play.  And if you want the "in the book" feel, it is my strong opinion that 3E is Superman in PL15 MnM and 4E is Superman in 100 pt GURPS.  If you desire something else, then 4E may rock on toast.</blockquote>

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