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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5500976" data-attributes="member: 18280">Thankfully, AFAICT, no one is engaged in that.  Indeed, the "drinking game" you mentioned was about the quality of the argument used to demonstrate that 4e was superior for "narrativist play" rather than the quality of the game.  And, as it quoted examples of contradictions in the argument presented, it was useful from the standpoint of anyone actually following the argument who plays neither 3e nor 4e, and thus has no duck in the quackery.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />However, when you look at any game closely, it has some very funny features.  Like 1e thieves losing their ability to wear a chain shirt in core 1e.  I don't think that is ever completely avoidable; no designer will think of everything.I note that Pawsplay's description ("I simply made the observation that a 4e Skill Challenge has potential interest as a challenge in storytelling, but almost none as a challenge of statistical or tactical skill. You can't "win" a SC except through luck, or by successfully engaging the imaginary elements and figuring out what sort of resolution is appealing, particularly to the GM.") sounds similar to what you tend to call "Mother May I?" gaming, where you are trying to guess what the GM is thinking.I have seen better examples of skill challenges here on EN World, but that is the impression I got from the books, too.  (Shrug)  But then, I'm no expert on the system, nor ever will be, and later books might be better.It does seem to me, from examining several WotC 4e adventures, though, that their lame skill challenges are also tied into the needs of the Delve format, whereas the interesting skill challenges I've heard about on EN World seem far more organic.....really nothing more than a means to organize the DM's notes.  I also note that the DMs with interesting skill challenges seem monolithic (or nearly so) in their willingness to drop X/Y if it seems appropriate, rather than forcing the SC to grind on.RC</blockquote>

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