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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CuRoi" data-source="post: 5502860" data-attributes="member: 98032">AHA! so there IS system mastery in 4e? Heh, I'm just harrassing you. Thanks for the info on class roles - I did n't play long enough to get a feel for it and still don't fully appreciate it. I sense 4e collapsing under the weight of not too many abused feats or spells but too many abused classes just prior to the release of 5e <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />   Ahhhh now you are harrassing me! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":eek:" title="Eek!    :eek:"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":eek:" /> Well, it can and it can't be formed out of their actions. It all depends on if the players even want to get involved in that overarching plot or not. But it is there because it WILL effect the players somehow simply because it will effect the entire campaign to some degree. I always include some sort of "bigger than you" plot or scheme for the players to encounter. Why? Because thats what good stories are about. If I wrote campaigns about players doing their laundry and looking for work between sparse "adventure" the game would sorta suck dont you think? I don't know the result, only the intentions of the main actors in the plot. The players must provide the unpredictable part. If they never latch on to it, it will necessarily unfold as I see fit. Most recently I ran a Serenity campaign. I'll try to give an example and keep it short, but my plots are usually pretty complex so its tricky to do without filling up way too much space (If you haven't seen Firefly you need to, hopefully it makes sense out of context). The plot involved an internal power struggle in the Alliance. The Blue Sun corporation (mega corp) was run by a renegade power broker whose family had been members of parliament for generations. This parlimentarian, Blackwell, had literally started the Independence War (similar to the US Civil War) as a smokescreen for the Miranda project. After that project's horrific failure, Blackwell and his partner in the top secret endeavor went different ways. Blackwell, in an attempt to salvage the Miranda project was harvesting Reavers from the black, performing some really scary "renditons", securing them in black facilities (completely off government radar) and experimenting with ways to mind control them. Blackwell's partner in crime was Lu Ming. From the failed Miranda project, he took to his own methods for securing "the future" of the Verse - the experimentation on and training of elite covert operatives (aka River Tam). He continued to pursue this under covert parlimentarian channels. Lu Ming also happened to have has hand in other shady dealings. When a player once enquired about him, the player was told "you know the Tong? He is the Tong (organizaed crime of the Serenity universe)." Blackwell's plan was to use the Reavers to massacre parliment in a bid to take control of government.  Why would this possibly effect the players? Because they lived in this universe and had ties to both the Tong and the Alliance from character backgrounds. Why did I create all this without input from the players? Well, as has been said - to give them somethign worth doing <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I can imagine a campaign wrought completely on the fly from whole cloth, but unless the players are really driven and focused, it would quickly get stale. In this case, the players went about flying from job to job and every now and then would brush up against this meta plot. A little taste here and there. It was the "big hook" and they were nibblign on it as they sandboxed the universe.  They even encountered a very key part early on in the campaign and only later realized its significance and had to return to that planet to gather more information. For the longest time, I figured they wouldn't get directly involved in this as they seemed to be having fun running from planet to planet being general brigands and privateers. However, at one point, they did something inexplicable (as players often do). They had a spat on board their ship, someone tossed a grenade and blew a whole in the hull (they tossed into the demolition guys room....) They then collectively DECIDED ON THEIR OWN that the closest spaceport was their BEST option (the planet they just left had law enforcement already on the lookout for them). That spaceport belonged to none other than Nishka. I was bewildered. Nishka is a sadistic, cruel, wholly evil sort of guy. He also had a regular job that involved this major plot for which he always needed boats for (cause they often were never seen again.) From there they were immersed. And from there, they were sort of locked in.  Railroading? I guess. If you call players willingly indebting themselves to a sadistic crime lord that has an interest in using these "nobodies" to handle a suicide mission which they manage to survive by the skin of their teeth which in turn sends them spiralling into a world with REALLY big players on a ride they can't control. I was reeling them in at that point and they were loving it from what I could tell.  Thank you. This has been my point all along. I will NOT argue with you that talented DMs can't take any game and make it a great ride. I won't even argue that if I really wanted to I could probably take this 4e which I have been so resistant to and make it fit my style. However, I have no desire to take the time to do so when I've got a deeply flawed, but fun system which I enjoy already <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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