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<blockquote data-quote="Cryptos" data-source="post: 4592344" data-attributes="member: 58439">It's not just that you can build a better &quot;controller&quot; out of other classes.&nbsp; Honestly, I feel like a lot of classes have as much or more &quot;control&quot; than the Wizard without any tweaking on the player's part, now that they're finally going with the &quot;control flow, pace and direction of the battle&quot; definition rather than &quot;control things by killing them.&quot;Warlock's at-will either discourages a target from moving closer, makes the caster invisible to the target (so, ultimately, they will most likely choose another target) or discourages damage to the caster.&nbsp; Then, at that same level, their encounters either: slide, cause a penalty to a defense, a penalty to attack rolls, or give temporary hit points.&nbsp; Then, at that same level again, their dailies do even more sliding, immobilize, or cause damage over time.And... when you do kill something, you can: modify a roll, teleport around the battlefield, or gain temporary hit points.&nbsp; And when you move, you're &quot;fuzzy&quot;.That's from the Striker, the role that is &quot;kill things.&quot;The Wizard, by comparison at the same level: does damage, does damage, does damage to several targets, does damage and pushes, punishes movement to one square, effectively, or slows.&nbsp; Then, at the same level, does damage in a blast, does damage and dazes, does damage in a what is effectively a burst, knocks prone, or weakens.&nbsp; Then, for dailies, does damage, does damage with a conjuration, does damage with a cloud, or makes things a little sleepy.And... when you do kill something after doing all that damage, you get... nothing.&nbsp; When you move, your arcane power does... nothing.&nbsp; But you can make lights and little noises which aren't allowed to have combat effects, and once per encounter boost your attack, defense, or make it harder to resist what will most likely be an ongoing damage effect.That's the &quot;controller.&quot;&nbsp; Weird.&nbsp; I think I always understood that the arcane classes seemed bass ackwards in the PHB on some level.&nbsp; In most editions, they'd be my favorite class and almost every character would have some sort of arcane power.&nbsp; Suddenly, with 4e (when all we had was the core), all I was making were martial characters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cryptos, post: 4592344, member: 58439"] It's not just that you can build a better "controller" out of other classes. Honestly, I feel like a lot of classes have as much or more "control" than the Wizard without any tweaking on the player's part, now that they're finally going with the "control flow, pace and direction of the battle" definition rather than "control things by killing them." Warlock's at-will either discourages a target from moving closer, makes the caster invisible to the target (so, ultimately, they will most likely choose another target) or discourages damage to the caster. Then, at that same level, their encounters either: slide, cause a penalty to a defense, a penalty to attack rolls, or give temporary hit points. Then, at that same level again, their dailies do even more sliding, immobilize, or cause damage over time. And... when you do kill something, you can: modify a roll, teleport around the battlefield, or gain temporary hit points. And when you move, you're "fuzzy". That's from the Striker, the role that is "kill things." The Wizard, by comparison at the same level: does damage, does damage, does damage to several targets, does damage and pushes, punishes movement to one square, effectively, or slows. Then, at the same level, does damage in a blast, does damage and dazes, does damage in a what is effectively a burst, knocks prone, or weakens. Then, for dailies, does damage, does damage with a conjuration, does damage with a cloud, or makes things a little sleepy. And... when you do kill something after doing all that damage, you get... nothing. When you move, your arcane power does... nothing. But you can make lights and little noises which aren't allowed to have combat effects, and once per encounter boost your attack, defense, or make it harder to resist what will most likely be an ongoing damage effect. That's the "controller." Weird. I think I always understood that the arcane classes seemed bass ackwards in the PHB on some level. In most editions, they'd be my favorite class and almost every character would have some sort of arcane power. Suddenly, with 4e (when all we had was the core), all I was making were martial characters. [/QUOTE]

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