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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mal Malenkirk" data-source="post: 4596240" data-attributes="member: 834">A lot of these pure DPR stats seem non-sense to me.Pure numbers that don't reflect what I experience on the battle field.Many flaws exist.First of all, if you focus on at-will, you can't claim you are comparing the DPR of characters.  Just the DPR of some at-will.  In practice, most fights last about 5 rounds and typically my 5th level wizard only do at-wills for two or three of these rounds.  Only in extremely long sluggathon does the DPR of the at-will approximate the average DPR of the character.  For my 5fth level wizard, about 50% of the time my attack isn't an at-will.  This will keep increasing.  Last session, first fight, first round I caught 3 guys in a burning hands.  Then the opposition spread around us, but who cares, fire shroud caught four of them.  Then the rogue used his positioning strike, the fighter used tide of Iron, and what do you know, three more guys with scorching burst.  Fight was over by round four.  Next fight includes flames shpere so your DPR calculation would need to include that, wouldn't they?And it's not nearly the record.  So far it is hitting 4 guys out of 5 thanks to action surge and inflicted 12D6+20 (thanks to shadowfell glove combined with bruning hand).  Actually, one of these was a critical and I hit two more with the scorching burst that same round.  Can't rememeber the total damage, but it was quite satisfying for level 3.  An hindsight calculation tells me the average would be 90 which seems close enough.It doesn't alway work, of course, but it's what a wizard strives for.  It's what tactics should be geared to set up. ---Another flaw in typical DPR analysis is that a lot of theses characters used for comparisons are monkeys.  Take the DPR output of a 4th level ranger with 20 STR who is using two waraxes with weapon focus, improved quarry and two weapon fighting focus.  Does his impressive DPR includes the fact that he's gonna get KILLED?All offense and no defense means johnny will get slaughtered.When I am DM I have no qualm in ganging on the frontline warrior with top damage and low defense.  Typically, a real TWF ranger, one who sees action in a campaign where the DM doesn't play favorite or fudge extensively, will do a few of the following;Sacrifice a more extreme STR to get a good DEXSacrifice some offense to get a weapon that has defensive bonusSacrifice some offensive feats to get feats that improves defense (Armor feat if he has low dex, TWD etc.).I don't care about the DPR of the monkey TWF ranger that exists only to prove a point and is never seen on the battlefield...That was an extreme case, of course, but most of the DPR kings presented for analysis are more fragile than their standard counterpart.  You should duck them a 10% to 20% penalty to DPR on the basis that they will almost never be the last man standing in tough fights.  High offense and middling defense is a bad mix; it makes them targets.  You can expect to waste more rounds making death saving throw than most other builds.  DPR is nice, but DPF (Damage per fight) is much better.  Real DPR would be the total damage dealt in the fight divided by the number of rounds.  If you systematically computed real fight value, I bet you'd be surprised of the result.  Getting knocked out or forced to withdraw really hurts your numbers.---In practice, most rogues will forego a sneak attack rather than put themselves in an untenable position that will see them be torn apart in just one round.  Most DM not affraid to hurt a players feeling will routinely have monsters grabbing the archer.  Most defenders that opted for the executioner axe instead of a shield will drop below zero much more often than their shield and board counterpart over their career etc.  Typical DPR analysis do not reflect the reality of the combat.    Same is true for wizard, of course.  My wizard gets attacked a lot in my campaign due to his love of close blast and burst.  He just happens to be built to take it.  He doesn't have 20 int, he doesn't even have (or can qualify) for the fire damage spell feat but hey, he has never dropped below 0 and his defenses are the best in the team overall.  The rogue can't say as much.</blockquote>

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