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<blockquote data-quote="Diirk" data-source="post: 4599404" data-attributes="member: 14476">It depends. Rogues and rangers both get quite a few escape tools that boost their survivability alot, even if they charge into what looks like dangerous situations. Also striker damage can end a fight very quickly. I find the rogue in my group seldom forgoes his extra sneak attack damage, and I certainly don't go easy on him !This is actually of somewhat limited usefulness; grab is a str attack (ignoring weapon mods) vs reflex. A 5th level ranger, for example, will have +1 class, +5 dex, +1 amulet, +2 level = 19 reflex defense. Its not quite clear on how monsters should make a grab roll (weapon attack - weapon mod from ph ? use str skill check? Those should be equivalent for players but are vastly different for monsters.), however whichever method you choose you'll probably end up with about a 40-50% chance that you'll successfully grab them. An orc eye of gruumsh for example, is +10 spear attack, or +7 str check.Then once you have grabbed them, keep in mind its just acrobatics vs reflex save as a move action to escape. Again with an eye of gruumsh, you're looking at +12 acrobatics (trained, +5 dex, +2 level) vs a reflex defense of 14. Well gee, I wonder if that will work. Then they can just use a power that lets them shift before their attack, and you accomplished pretty much nothing.Sure a wizard or warlock might have trouble with grabs, but rogues and rangers you can pretty much forget about.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Diirk, post: 4599404, member: 14476"] It depends. Rogues and rangers both get quite a few escape tools that boost their survivability alot, even if they charge into what looks like dangerous situations. Also striker damage can end a fight very quickly. I find the rogue in my group seldom forgoes his extra sneak attack damage, and I certainly don't go easy on him ! This is actually of somewhat limited usefulness; grab is a str attack (ignoring weapon mods) vs reflex. A 5th level ranger, for example, will have +1 class, +5 dex, +1 amulet, +2 level = 19 reflex defense. Its not quite clear on how monsters should make a grab roll (weapon attack - weapon mod from ph ? use str skill check? Those should be equivalent for players but are vastly different for monsters.), however whichever method you choose you'll probably end up with about a 40-50% chance that you'll successfully grab them. An orc eye of gruumsh for example, is +10 spear attack, or +7 str check. Then once you have grabbed them, keep in mind its just acrobatics vs reflex save as a move action to escape. Again with an eye of gruumsh, you're looking at +12 acrobatics (trained, +5 dex, +2 level) vs a reflex defense of 14. Well gee, I wonder if that will work. Then they can just use a power that lets them shift before their attack, and you accomplished pretty much nothing. Sure a wizard or warlock might have trouble with grabs, but rogues and rangers you can pretty much forget about. [/QUOTE]

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