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<blockquote data-quote="Doctor Futurity" data-source="post: 7760679" data-attributes="member: 10738"><p>Food for thought....I haven't really found this issue to be one which bothers me, but I can see your logic. The main reason I fail to see it as a serious issue is twofold: first, DC 23 for saves is exceedingly rare until late in the game, and second, the odds of guaranteed crippling failure at high level are very situationally dependent. Yes, I can agree that could be a problem if those situations crop up a lot (e.g. DM regularly uses foes that hit the weak spots all the time), at least in the sense that the PCs may feel like their chance of success must be greater than it allows for (without making effort to build the PC toward that end goal). </p><p></p><p>On your idea of one attack hitting for two or more saves with different effects, I think the idea itself is neat regardless of whether it is considered a fix for this issue or not. I seems like it's a fix in the sense of "spread the trouble" which is fine....but what it sounds like you're really interested in is finding a way high level PCs can show more proficiency in non class saves. OTOH the only things in the game I know of which ask for DC 23 saves tend to be world-ending boss monsters which, to be fair from the DM's perspective, are not creatures you want to see the PCs easily making saves from. Building better monsters with a wider range of effects across multiple saves would definitely make the misery spread around (in a good way).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Doctor Futurity, post: 7760679, member: 10738"] Food for thought....I haven't really found this issue to be one which bothers me, but I can see your logic. The main reason I fail to see it as a serious issue is twofold: first, DC 23 for saves is exceedingly rare until late in the game, and second, the odds of guaranteed crippling failure at high level are very situationally dependent. Yes, I can agree that could be a problem if those situations crop up a lot (e.g. DM regularly uses foes that hit the weak spots all the time), at least in the sense that the PCs may feel like their chance of success must be greater than it allows for (without making effort to build the PC toward that end goal). On your idea of one attack hitting for two or more saves with different effects, I think the idea itself is neat regardless of whether it is considered a fix for this issue or not. I seems like it's a fix in the sense of "spread the trouble" which is fine....but what it sounds like you're really interested in is finding a way high level PCs can show more proficiency in non class saves. OTOH the only things in the game I know of which ask for DC 23 saves tend to be world-ending boss monsters which, to be fair from the DM's perspective, are not creatures you want to see the PCs easily making saves from. Building better monsters with a wider range of effects across multiple saves would definitely make the misery spread around (in a good way). [/QUOTE]
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