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<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 7760703" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>It's probably not much of a problem until level 15 or 16. And even then it's one you can skirt around by using two to four lower CR foes. </p><p></p><p>Heck, I played in a handful of sessions at level 20 and the save problem wasn't *that* bad. Monsters saved against my attacks, and I saved against theirs. </p><p></p><p></p><p>It's almost as if the DMG wasn't finished for a couple months after the <em>Monster Manual</em>. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you're playing at level 15+ and didn't skip ahead with pregens, you've likely spend a good hundred hours with that party. You should have an idea of their strengths and weaknesses, and maybe have stumbled over some tactics to negate their weaknesses. </p><p>Yeah, it sucks to be stun-locked as the barbarian. Thankfully this is a team based game and someone can maybe pump a <em>lesser restoration</em> or similar spell into you to get you back into the fight.</p><p></p><p>And as much as it sucks to be stunlocked, it sucks more to be dead. But I don't think I'd describe having the game potentially kill characters as a game breaking design flaw. It's so much worse when you spend an entire fight rolling 3s and 4s and unable to hit the side of a Huge object.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It was a bit of a disconnect, but really unrelated to "the math". </p><p></p><p>Spell save DCs go up for players for the same reason attack bonuses go up: so accuracy improves and your chances of succeeding increase against the flat DCs. That makes sense there. </p><p>The problem is that monster saves go up as well and are tied to proficiency bonuses, like PC saves. Which was probably a mistake. Monster save DCs should increase at a different rate: monster saves need to be higher, but not increase at the same rate as PC saves.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 7760703, member: 37579"] It's probably not much of a problem until level 15 or 16. And even then it's one you can skirt around by using two to four lower CR foes. Heck, I played in a handful of sessions at level 20 and the save problem wasn't *that* bad. Monsters saved against my attacks, and I saved against theirs. It's almost as if the DMG wasn't finished for a couple months after the [I]Monster Manual[/I]. ;) If you're playing at level 15+ and didn't skip ahead with pregens, you've likely spend a good hundred hours with that party. You should have an idea of their strengths and weaknesses, and maybe have stumbled over some tactics to negate their weaknesses. Yeah, it sucks to be stun-locked as the barbarian. Thankfully this is a team based game and someone can maybe pump a [I]lesser restoration[/I] or similar spell into you to get you back into the fight. And as much as it sucks to be stunlocked, it sucks more to be dead. But I don't think I'd describe having the game potentially kill characters as a game breaking design flaw. It's so much worse when you spend an entire fight rolling 3s and 4s and unable to hit the side of a Huge object. It was a bit of a disconnect, but really unrelated to "the math". Spell save DCs go up for players for the same reason attack bonuses go up: so accuracy improves and your chances of succeeding increase against the flat DCs. That makes sense there. The problem is that monster saves go up as well and are tied to proficiency bonuses, like PC saves. Which was probably a mistake. Monster save DCs should increase at a different rate: monster saves need to be higher, but not increase at the same rate as PC saves. [/QUOTE]
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