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Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals
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<blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 7761025" data-attributes="member: 6787503"><p>You’re still mixing things up. Initiative is rolled at the table. Attacks happen in the fiction. You’re using the order of mechanical resolution to make an argument about the chronology of events in the fiction, which is like comparing apples to oranges. Initiative doesn’t relate to a discrete fictional event the way an attack roll does. What it represents in the fiction is a continuous effort to move and act quickly that lasts throughout the entire combat encounter. It’s part of the mechanical resolution of action declarations made at the table, including the one that initiated combat. I'm not here to tell you how to run your game, so do what you want, but I have to ask, what do you think the point is of the DM signaling the beginning of combat and asking for initiative rolls when neither s/he nor any of the other players has declared a combat-initiating action?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's pretty clear to me because of the context of this example being in the combat section and the way movement and action happen in turns in combat that the fiction being described here is the outcome of a combat-initiating action declaration on the part of the players to close to melee or attack range from a hidden position and initiate attacks all in a single round. The resolution of that declaration and subsequent actions requires the determination of surprise, rolling of initiative, and resolution of attacks in initiative order. All of that follows the players' declaration for their PCs to initiate combat against the bandits. Without that action declaration, there's no reason to begin combat by engaging the rules for combat resolution. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Initiative is the <strong>3rd</strong> step of combat. The 1st is to determine surprise, so as soon as it has been determined that the cube has surprised the adventurers, combat has begun.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Without a declared action to attack on the part of the players there's no reason for the fictional outcome to be that the adventurers spring from the trees to attack. If the players had said they wanted to spring from the trees to say hello there'd be no reason to begin combat and no surprise determined. The context here is we're reading about combat and surprise in combat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're still mixing up rolling initiative, which happens in the real world, with a gelatinous cube engulfing an adventurer, which happens in the fiction. Initiative can certainly play a role in the opposed efforts of the cube and the adventurer in danger of being engulfed if, for example, the adventurer has the opportunity to use a reaction that affects his/her saving throw against becoming engulfed. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Listen to what I'm saying. This distinction between direct and indirect opposition you're insisting is important to whether an ability check counts as a contest isn't supported by the "Contests in Combat" sidebar. All that's required for a contest under that description is for one ability check to be compared to another. An initiative roll certainly fits that description.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Rolling a higher initiative would give you the opportunity to do nothing first, but it's obviously not the intent of the rules that you do nothing with your turn. The assumption is that your character is a participant in a battle. In fact, if you told me at the beginning of combat that your character was going to do nothing during the battle, there wouldn't be any need for you to roll initiative or have a turn. Also, attacks against you might auto-hit. The rules assume a certain level of active participation on the part of the characters. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Likewise your assumption that his ruling is based on more than two opponents in initiative and notions of it not being direct opposition.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hriston, post: 7761025, member: 6787503"] You’re still mixing things up. Initiative is rolled at the table. Attacks happen in the fiction. You’re using the order of mechanical resolution to make an argument about the chronology of events in the fiction, which is like comparing apples to oranges. Initiative doesn’t relate to a discrete fictional event the way an attack roll does. What it represents in the fiction is a continuous effort to move and act quickly that lasts throughout the entire combat encounter. It’s part of the mechanical resolution of action declarations made at the table, including the one that initiated combat. I'm not here to tell you how to run your game, so do what you want, but I have to ask, what do you think the point is of the DM signaling the beginning of combat and asking for initiative rolls when neither s/he nor any of the other players has declared a combat-initiating action? It's pretty clear to me because of the context of this example being in the combat section and the way movement and action happen in turns in combat that the fiction being described here is the outcome of a combat-initiating action declaration on the part of the players to close to melee or attack range from a hidden position and initiate attacks all in a single round. The resolution of that declaration and subsequent actions requires the determination of surprise, rolling of initiative, and resolution of attacks in initiative order. All of that follows the players' declaration for their PCs to initiate combat against the bandits. Without that action declaration, there's no reason to begin combat by engaging the rules for combat resolution. Initiative is the [B]3rd[/B] step of combat. The 1st is to determine surprise, so as soon as it has been determined that the cube has surprised the adventurers, combat has begun. Without a declared action to attack on the part of the players there's no reason for the fictional outcome to be that the adventurers spring from the trees to attack. If the players had said they wanted to spring from the trees to say hello there'd be no reason to begin combat and no surprise determined. The context here is we're reading about combat and surprise in combat. You're still mixing up rolling initiative, which happens in the real world, with a gelatinous cube engulfing an adventurer, which happens in the fiction. Initiative can certainly play a role in the opposed efforts of the cube and the adventurer in danger of being engulfed if, for example, the adventurer has the opportunity to use a reaction that affects his/her saving throw against becoming engulfed. Listen to what I'm saying. This distinction between direct and indirect opposition you're insisting is important to whether an ability check counts as a contest isn't supported by the "Contests in Combat" sidebar. All that's required for a contest under that description is for one ability check to be compared to another. An initiative roll certainly fits that description. Rolling a higher initiative would give you the opportunity to do nothing first, but it's obviously not the intent of the rules that you do nothing with your turn. The assumption is that your character is a participant in a battle. In fact, if you told me at the beginning of combat that your character was going to do nothing during the battle, there wouldn't be any need for you to roll initiative or have a turn. Also, attacks against you might auto-hit. The rules assume a certain level of active participation on the part of the characters. Likewise your assumption that his ruling is based on more than two opponents in initiative and notions of it not being direct opposition. [/QUOTE]
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